Dr. Ronen Shoval

Lio: Hi, everyone. Sorry, we're starting now. We thought we were live five minutes ago, and we had a beautiful conversation, Seth and I, and our guest is waiting. So, what I suggest we do is just do a quick welcome and bring the guest in. It is our 100th episode, and we're really excited to have it. Some things in the world have changed, not all in the direction we wanted. But maybe what's happening is making more people ask bigger questions, which is probably the best we can hope for now. We're assembling a mosaic of amazing people—academics, journalists—each with a unique story, all helping us explore why there's Jewish hatred after all these years. Our guest today is an Israeli philosopher and academic focused on Jewish political thought, particularly regarding antisemitism. He wrote a book called "Holiness and Society," which discusses how holiness can affect institutions in society. I think it will be a great opportunity to talk to someone who spends a lot of time thinking about this. Let's give a warm welcome to Dr. Ron Shoval. Hello, hello. Oh, he's still muted. Give it a second.

Ronan: Thank you for the introduction.

Lio: I wanted to say you went to a school in La De France, in France?

Ronan: Yes, in the suburbs.

Lio: Excellent. For those who missed the first five minutes, everyone here is invited to check out the first 22 episodes of The Jew Function, where we delve into the Jewish story from Abraham to the state of Israel. We look at historic patterns, the words of Jewish sages, and network science to present a compelling narrative. I feel this might relate to what you're doing. I'd like to start with perhaps the first question. When I read your bio, it mentions you're working on Mosaic philosophy. What is Mosaic philosophy about?

Ronan: Sure, I'd love to explain. But I might disappoint you because I don't think I have a straightforward answer to your big question on antisemitism. Our tradition says something interesting: Esau hates Jacob. It seems almost like a fact of nature, hard to explain or analyze. We can examine different manifestations of antisemitism and their motivations, but it remains a constant part of history that we must understand as part of our identity, whether we like it or not. So sorry if that's disappointing.

Lio: No, it's not disappointing. We want to help uncover answers that might be hidden within you.

Seth: Yes, the more challenging the question, the better for us.

Lio: Absolutely. But really, do tell us about what you're doing with the blend of sociology and religion. What is Mosaic philosophy?

Ronan: When reading political philosophy—from the Ancient Greek and Roman to the Enlightenment—you'll see it seems the Jewish tradition doesn't offer much. But I completely disagree. There's a lot to uncover in our tradition that's relevant to political philosophy. Most Jewish tradition developed during the diaspora, without a state. Thus, Jewish writings didn't address sovereignty. When Jews returned to Israel, they turned to philosophers like Rousseau and Locke for inspiration. My work focuses on concepts developed by Moses in the first five books of the Bible and shows that he had a complete and unique political philosophy, relevant to today's discussions.

Seth: Can you talk about the most relevant concepts?

Ronan: I believe everything is relevant. For instance, many 15th to 17th-century philosophers referenced Hebraic traditions. Even when reading Locke, Hobbes, or Selden, these writings often interpret the Bible. Many principles we associate with the Enlightenment were inspired by the Bible. For example, separation of powers and rule of law—the idea that a king must adhere to laws and not be their source. These principles began in our ancient tradition. My focus is to show how the Bible presents holiness as a collective, political concept, not just an individual one.

Lio: To clarify, once you leave the individual realm, you're entering politics. Does this flow into power, control, and other political characteristics?

Ronan: Yes, politics involves dealing with power, justice, equality, and freedom—big questions we always debate. In families, you have concepts of justice. But in larger groups, you see more clashes because they have different concepts of justice. Friedrich Hayek talked about a local and extended order. Families work communally, but society needs different rules to function properly. Our challenge is balancing individual and public spheres while maintaining justice.

Lio: This is fascinating. We often discuss this clash. In a family, justice works intuitively through communal systems. But beyond that, something changes. What changes in the transition from individual to

Ronan: I disagree that politics is inherently negative. Politics involves justice at all levels—family, clan, society. But as groups grow, concepts of justice can clash. Hayek noted that local order (family) is communal. We work hard for our family without expecting anything in return. Extending this empathy doesn't work in broader society. Our challenge is managing local empathy in public spheres, ensuring justice is present in both.

Lio: Beautiful, because I think we

Seth: Let me speed it up a bit. The family is mine; I feel ownership. As soon as I step outside, Claudiasre, for example, isn't mine. I must care for them, but it's harder to feel ownership and willingness to give as much as I do for my family.

Ronan: I think we need to think about it maybe not as a zero-sum game, but as a circle in a pond, when you throw a stone, and you have different circles. Obviously, you feel connected to yourself, then to your family, your community, your nation, and then to all humanity. But sometimes, and I think it's really interesting in Nam, you feel so connected to other people that, in times of crisis, one is willing to sacrifice their life for somebody they don't know.

Seth: It happens in many nations.

Ronan: I was in New York City.

Seth: Okay, maybe not. Israel is very small.

Ronan: But the phenomenon exists. I remember the feeling in New York City after 9/11. It's not the whole nation, but everybody—

Ronan: It's a phenomenon you mentioned. I was in Princeton on October 7, where I was teaching. On October 8, when I took the plane back to Israel, it was packed with soldiers who came from all over the world, fighting to get on the plane back to Israel to help their brothers and sisters. That kind of feeling we have in Am Israel is out there. I remember speaking in my community on October 7 in New Jersey. I was asked if the army called me, and I said, "Of course nobody called me. The army didn’t have my American cell number. But if you didn’t hear the calling, it's because you're deaf." They are calling all of us. My brothers and sisters, whom I never met, were calling all of us. The only question is, are your ears open to this call of help?

Ronan: I'll tell you another story. In '67, my grandma, who was living in Argentina and was quite poor, sold all her jewelry before the war and sent it to the Israeli Embassy to help the Jewish people. She sold everything—even her wedding ring—because of this huge feeling of collective responsibility. As much as I would like to say that this is a common phenomenon in many nations, I think that we have something which is, in a way, above normal here. The amount of sacrifice people are willing to make is something we cannot take for granted.

Seth: Yeah, we just want to give you a hard time to see, you know...

Seth: What we really want—it's beautiful actually. When you said our "vo," it's one of the words we're constantly talking about. What we want to do is slice away everything that's not getting us there.

Lio: The difference between Jews and the nations of the world is at the heart of this unique attitude we get from the nations. You can be on the other side of the planet and feel the call. Your grandma felt the call back then, and Jews feel that calling. Sadly, mostly when things get tough. That feeling of a common call—only Jews have it. The nations of the world don't, and I'm not just talking about identity and genetics. There are Jews mixed among the nations who lack that point in the heart if not awakened. They can either fear it or resent it, or as we see in antisemitism, they look up to the Jews to activate it and apply it generously, showing an example to the world. We don't do it, and that's the source of antisemitism. We live with it naturally. We feel it; they don't.

Seth: The Esau question at the beginning—if we understand the big picture, then all of these characters fit into how it unfolds and what the purpose is. If I want to walk forward, I have to move a leg backward. Someone might ask, "Why are you digging a hole if you're building a building?" But understanding the process, there's nothing wrong with digging a hole. It's part of it. Maybe what's important now is dealing with this conversation: what is the goal of this nation? If everything goes right, who are we, and what are we aiming for?

Ronan: Coming back to the message Moses offers us, the concept of collective holiness, which is political, should be a light unto the nations. Being a light means to inspire by giving an example. Let's play a game: I'll say a state, and you say the first thing that comes to mind. Brazil?

Seth: Carnival, soccer, football.

Ronan: Italy?

Seth: Pizza.

Ronan: America?

Seth: Capitalism.

Ronan: So the message here is what we think about Israel, it’s morality. But not like other nations—it's a unique type.

Seth: Can we change the word? Morality is so loaded.

Lio: Plus, it's relative. We want something more objective.

Ronan: I meant a type of morality based on God, not subjective, which is why holiness should be collective, answering how states behave. Imagine economics beyond capitalism or socialism. The Bible offers a theory called Jubilee. If you read how to fulfill Jubilee now, not just in agriculture, all big questions should have a unique example, inspiring societies. That's what this nation has to have.

Lio: Yeah, get down to brass tacks. What must happen in society?

Seth: Besides giving credit cards every 50 years, what else?

Ronan: This is our challenge. Tell us the principles and obstacles to getting there.

Ronan: As Jews in Israel, living inside a tradition, we haven't developed answers to big questions because we lived in diaspora. Reading the Talmud, there isn’t the book that asks these big societal questions. So our role is to write these and think about them. I started my little work, and others are doing the same. It's a generational effort. We have time now to ask big questions, get inspiration, and build new layers of ideas that are more authentic. I have examples, but they're not fully developed. For instance, dealing with terror—how the IDF handles challenges may inspire other nations. The problem of antisemitism in Europe with radical movements, we've faced it since our existence. After 9/11, America checked everyone at airports; we face such dilemmas for long, developed ways that may inspire. It's Western, Jewish, and might inspire others.

Lio: There are so many questions that fit perfectly with what we're talking about. Is anyone from the political sphere taking notes from what you're saying? Not necessarily in the middle of a war, with focus on soldiers, but generally?

Ronan: I don't think it's a question for politicians. They need concrete answers to big questions. But imagining a Jewish foreign or education minister—we haven't developed the answers. Israelis and the Jewish world must think about these questions. How do we imagine taxes, prisons, every political question? We copy-paste from others, but we need different answers. This is the call to look for them. In 300 years, maybe we'll have answers for politicians. But at the moment, we need to understand the questions.

Lio: I don't think we have 300 years, my friend. I’m optimistic and live in Israel. The internal friction is a greater danger than external threats.

Ronan: I'll give you two perspectives. When we first came to Israel, our temple was in Shiloh, not Jerusalem. It took over 400 years to move. It's okay. We have a long history and should be patient. Second, both religious and secular people are afraid of a Bible-based political concept. Religious see the Bible as a message for individuals, not the state. We have to mature as a people before developing these answers.

Seth: Society is the low-hanging fruit.

Ronan: Who’s ripe for this conversation?

Lio: Who is ready?

Ronan: You see in Israel, you can have this conversation in some pre-army organizations or with philosophers. People like Yohan Haz, Av Lev, and Asaf Melamed. It's discussed in academia and some religious movements. There's buzz but a gap between talk and action. Writing my book, others like Ophir Ivgi and Professor Schmuet Rig, said it was important as it was the only book on this topic.

Seth: Yes, we still have a lot of work to do. You mentioned the ripples before.

Ronan: Yeah.

Seth: Also, when you look at Israel compared to the world, when you look at that, people can't comprehend. When you see that big map of all the Muslim nations and the one Jewish nation, it's like a pinpoint. I don't think people can comprehend that. The influence that the Jews or Israel have on the world is not obvious and totally not proportional. Unless every Jew is worth a few million people, then that's what's happening. But also within the Jewish people itself. There's internality meaning like Israel and externality meaning, like the rest of the world. Within Israel, let's take that same paradigm and say that within Israel, there's like the Israel within the Israel. And then, like the nations of the world within Israel. That same ratio wouldn't take the same way that Israel affects the whole world. If the Israel within the Israel affects the nations within the Israel, then we can also have this profound effect. So when you talk about those ripples, I don't think we need to go to our biggest enemies or those who are against us right at first. We need to find that low-hanging fruit and build this small critical mass, and it will naturally ripple through.

Ronan: I think we have two different discussions. The first one is about what is the message of Israel. By the way, I forgot to mention something important. We saw a big influence at the beginning of Zionism and mainly in the movements of people like David Ben-Gurion. If you read, it's talking about the prophetic message, and I think it's directly about that. You can see important figures coming mainly from the left at the beginning of the state. Regarding your question, I think we have to distinguish between two things. One is Israel's message, which is work that we have to develop by ourselves. Nobody will do this hard work for us. The second is how we can work together with the world. Once we have better answers about who we are, I think we'll be able to find better allies around the world. If we are selling ourselves only as a startup nation, it's not enough. It's nice to have, but it's not unique in any way. Startup nations can be in Taiwan. Our message is not about being very smart in AI or computer science; it's about showing a different relation to morality. This is our challenge: how to develop ourselves. Once we have those answers, let me suggest a path. We think about the UN, and we all feel that the UN is a routed organization. An important tool for Israel to spread its message is to develop the UN based in Jerusalem and invite only states with common moral ground. This is something I think we can achieve.

Lio: We don’t have much time left for this talk, but it sounds like we need to talk more. I want to throw a little wrench in the wheels here. Believe it or not, some of our listeners may not believe it, but as you said, a lot of those ideas are discussed by our sages. Sag told me: this mosaic philosophy per Moses, not because it's a mosaic, but it's also a mosaic in the sense we’re talking about.

Ronan: I was referring to Moses, definitely.

Lio: Yeah, yeah. The penny dropped halfway through the conversation. Our sages talk about this, and when you look at more recent Jewish sages like Yud Ash, he published a newspaper called The Nation. The same guy who wrote the commentary on the Book of Zor and the Ari at Cha, tried to appeal specifically to the people who are establishing the nation.

Seth: Israel. Let’s send it to Iran and rush.

Lio: No, that’s not the point. He saw the opportunity—a young nation—and he tried to instill those ideas. How do you make a communism that works in a way, not the communism that failed in Russia, but it sits on one thing: human nature. We have to address the elephant in the room, which is the ego, our desire for maximum pleasure and minimum pain at others' expense. With some, it's small, so they seem like good people, but it's circumstantial. You make someone a CEO or president, he’ll make the same egoist calculations. At the top of the ladder is the biggest ego, that's natural. But unless we recognize it as the obstacle and address that first, the question is, can we really have these conversations?

Ronan: Yes, this is a very good question, and I think our tradition offers a good answer for that. If you read about philosophers like Hobbes, Rousseau, and Locke, they start with different understandings of your question. If you assume the human heart is bad, you need strong religion, society, families to control the ego and grow into a better society. I just described Rousseau and Hobbes. But the Jewish tradition—

Lio: Don't forget Machiavelli, who just said ride this animal, despite the costs.

Ronan: The Torah offers a different perspective. In Genesis, it says the human heart is bad in youth, implying it might grow. It doesn't say it's bad at birth, so we are not sure whether you’re born right or good. When sexuality emerges, something happens; you become egoistic. But there's potential to grow beyond that. Grow up and overcome—a similar word in Hebrew. The Bible suggests humans can become good. When you work with God, it’s with both your needs because they come from the same soul. If you try to eliminate human nature, you kill life.

Lio: It's also impossible. Nature won't let you suppress it entirely.

Ronan: But if you look at holiness in Christianity, they might tell you a holy person doesn't marry.

Seth: Okay.

Ronan: In Islam, you may not drink, but you're told to make the drink holy. It’s sublimation of lower needs into higher concepts.

Lio: We call it adding intention to it. The desire won't change, but why are you doing this? For whom?

Ronan: It's deeper than that because rape and love are almost the same action.

Lio: Someone cutting you with a knife—a surgeon versus a killer in an alley.

Ronan: It changes the action itself. Even if it looks the same, it's not because of a different context.

Lio: Yes, that's a good. We have to close. I’m debating between a couple of quotes for you to read. One question before that: It sounds like someone needs an education system to teach from young to old.

Ronan: There are discussions about it, but it’s a long process. The educational system in Israel has many challenges. I wouldn’t say it's completely broken. We excelled in the higher test possible, October seventh, and there's the aftermath, but the potential goes unfulfilled. While I'm not developing answers for that, I do give tools to teachers. At the Arg Institute, we have about a hundred students each year, focused more on philosophy or economics. Hopefully, one day we’ll have the education department as well.

Seth: Don't belittle what you're doing. We’ve talked to many people from different walks of life. Leo and I have been studying Baal Sal together for twenty years. You’ll see how much of the things you talk about are in there—Arvoot, Matan Torah, the writings of the last generation.

Lio: We should send you.

Seth: You have no idea how this will get into society. One last question: Philosophers like Schopenhauer talk about three stages of truth: first ridiculed, then accepted, and finally self-evident. So when we talk about a UN from Jerusalem, it’s an unbelievable idea. In the end, nation shouldn’t lift a sword against nation, everyone should be as one. But this middle phase or the first or second phase we're in is the trouble.

Ronan: That's why I said it’s a process, and we need patience. With science, each generation gets better knowledge. We didn’t have iPhones, but future generations will have something more developed.

Seth: Personal robot, probably.

Ronan: Probably, right. But in morality, each generation starts from scratch. The moral knowledge doesn't move to the next generation. Each generation has to grasp it from the beginning. And even more than that, since kids are coming into the world, each generation is being conquered by barbarians, which are the kids, okay? We have no moral knowledge, and we need to give them the tools, the ability, and all the things that we learned from generation to generation, and we need to give it to them. It's a huge task, okay? But the thing with this task is we don't have shortcuts. We can't have shortcuts. And we see the potential not only to go forward but also to go backward. This is a fact of life. But I'm optimistic in the sense that I believe we have a set of assets, which are in the book of Ash, the Sulam. Also, Eldan wrote his big book, The Sulam, the concept of Sulam A. If you remember, also the Ram is talking about it. We have angels going up and down. If you think about it, angels should make the other way round. They were supposed to be up and first go down and only then up. So what does it tell us? It tells us that each of us is an angel. We have an opportunity to go up the ladder, grasp those big ideas, and then go down and give those ideas to humanity. I think this is our challenge as the Jewish nation, to believe that we have the ability to go up, but to remember that our role, at the end of the day, is to take those big ideas and make sure that they are going down and giving light to the nations.

Seth: Incredible. It's like a glass of water in the desert.

Lio: Beautiful. There's really, like, you know, I was going back and forth as you were talking, between different quotes that speak about the ladder and speak about each generation and how these things are not inherited. We have to teach them; they have to acquire them. So there's a lot of great quotes, but eventually, I ended up with this quote from actually Rav Kook. If you do us the honor and give it a read, it's in the chat.

Ronan: It's time to bring up—okay, sorry. How can you translate the Rav? It's almost impossible. I don't know. It is. It is. Lio's good. Very good. By the way, I think one of the people that you should also consider is Manit, who has a very interesting perspective on those topics.

Lio: Manit too, yeah.

Ronan: One of the students of Rav Kook, from France, an amazing philosopher. He wrote exactly about those topics. Anyway, it is time to bring up and revive what has been forgotten from the heart of many. The condition of the generation and its spirit demands learning with the intellect from the sources of the Torah, which should have been found naturally. National love, as it should be, is the beginning of every upright nature and every moral and proper conduct, which is good in the eyes of God and man. Where is it from?

Lio: This is from Rav Kook. I'll tell you the exact place. Hold on. I'm done. I didn't copy the source. I have the document here. I'll find it in a second. Meanwhile, I'll say—

Lio: This is from Israel's Vocation and Its Nationalism.

Ronan: Ah, nice.

Lio: By the way—

Ronan: If you read Rav Kook, the first chapter, you will see he is speaking exactly about the topic of our conversation today. Those two pages there, it's basically our conversation. So you should—

Lio: Yeah, yeah, I know. This is actually—sorry, I misled you. It's from the Treasures of Otzar, yeah. I had no idea what we were going to walk into. When I asked Perplexity about your take on antisemitism, Perplexity was like, "It doesn't say much about the problem, the solution. You should publish more about it because I think you have a lot to say." I think you were saying it so eloquently and so—

Seth: Beautifully.

Lio: This is really—

Seth: Confidently and calmly and thought out.

Lio: It's a gift for us. And it's also proof that we're not completely crazy. There are other people—

Seth: Here, Lio, who—

Lio: Is also saying the same thing, yeah—

Seth: I know, I—

Lio: Know. So this is great. And this is another reason why you guys should listen to this podcast, promote it, support it, like, share, comment, leave a review because it helps to get more people into the conversation, which we believe is the first step to any sort of serious change. Get more people into the conversation. It doesn't happen in a lot of places. Only one book was written on these topics last year. Where can you find this book, by the way, "Holiness and Society"?

Ronan: That's on Amazon. You can go to Roth, that's the publishing house, or you go to my site. And you can have a link to Rut.

Lio: Excellent, excellent. And if you put in the code, The Jew Function, you get absolutely no discount, but it just feels fun to put in a code. We were thrilled to have you, and we will be thrilled to have you again.

Ronan: Thank you so much.

Lio: Definitely. Maybe after some time, tell us if someone actually read it and what they said about it. We would love to know. I think this is really the doorway to the future. Because if we don't have these conversations, we end up doing terrible things to each other. And forget about the rest of that story. We know how that goes. Thank you for being with us. We are The Jew Function, and we'll see everyone in our next show. I don't know if next week, but just stay tuned. We have a lot of great shows coming up. This was, by the way, our hundredth show. So we are committed to this process.

Seth: Thanks, Ronan.

Ronan: Thank you so much.

Lio: Take care.