Islamophobia Is Rational: Dr. Mordechai Kedar on the West’s Blind Spot

TheJewFunction Episode transcript Hosts: Lio and Seth | Guest: Dr. Mordechai (Moti) Kedar Lio • 01:53 Welcome, everyone, to TheJewFunction, the only podcast that actually tries to solve antisemitism and Jew hatred according to the laws of nature. And when I say the laws of nature, I mean historical patterns, the words of Jewish sages, even recent findings from network science. If you've been following the show, you know that we are very serious about trying to solve the problem of Jew hatred, and that we believe that nothing we're doing today, or very little of what we're doing today, actually works to solve the problem. We're getting better at putting up enough walls, reinforcing the gates, keeping the barbarians and the haters out of the city long enough for us to realize what we actually have to do to solve this problem. Every day I have a different feeling about it, but I think both Seth and I—Seth, I forgot to say, this is Seth—I think we're both optimists. We wouldn't be doing this unless we thought that there is a way to solve Jew hatred. It's not a random thing. It's irrational for a reason, because it's not something that's meant to be solved like any other problem in the world. And there's plenty of evidence, if someone cares to look. Today we have a guest who, if you'd asked me a while ago whether we'd be able to have an expert like this, I would probably have said I wasn't certain. But now I feel more confident inviting people like our guest, because I think people need a clear picture of where we are in the world and what we're facing. This is a time for asking hard questions, for looking at answers—even when they're uncomfortable—straight in the eye, and deciding what we do based on the reality around us, not on what we wish reality would be. Our guest today is a former IDF intelligence officer. He spent 25 years specializing in Syria, Islamist movements, and Arab political discourse, and now teaches Arabic and Middle Eastern politics at Bar-Ilan University. He's the architect behind the idea of the Palestinian Emirates. We'll hear about that from him. He's one of the region's most unapologetic realists. He says what he means and means what he says, and he says things that others don't always feel comfortable saying about Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the limits of coexistence. I'm very curious to hear what he has to say about that, and also about the state of the Jews. I'm very happy to welcome Dr. Mordechai “Moti” Kedar to TheJewFunction. Mordechai Kedar • 04:44 Thank you so much, Lio, for inviting me. You started with Jew hatred. I prefer to use this term rather than antisemitism because Arabs keep claiming that they are Semites, so how could they be antisemites? You cannot blame them for antisemitism, so I do blame them for Jew hatred. That's why I prefer “Jew hatred” or derivatives of this expression rather than “antisemitism.” That's the first thing. The second is the sources: where does it come from? Why do they hate us? To understand this, you have to analyze environments where Jew hatred exists versus environments where Jew hatred does not exist. In the social sciences, there is something called a control group. Let's say you give a vaccine to 100 people and don't give it to another 100 people, and you can see if there's a difference in percentages. The group you don't give the vaccine to is the control group. In this case, you find Jew hatred in two cultures. One is the European, Western, Christian-background culture, which extends also to the Americas. And you find Jew hatred in the Arab-Islamic Eastern environment. You don't find Jew hatred in India, China, Japan, Korea—I mean, the Far East. Why? Those are the control group. First of all, religion. Both religions, Islam and Christianity, are derivatives of Judaism. And to justify their existence, each of them had to denigrate, humiliate, and deny the legitimacy and even the existence of Judaism, in order to justify their own existence in the world. This is the first source of Jew hatred, because the Jews still believe in a religion that, according to Christianity's theory of replacement—and Islam, which also adopted this theory—should be denigrated, humiliated, denied, and persecuted, to show that Judaism is a false religion while Islam or Christianity is valid. How do I know this? India, China, Japan, Korea—their religions, meaning Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, have nothing to do with Judaism. Therefore, they don't need to do or say anything about Judaism to justify their existence. This is the first core reason: the fact that both Christianity and Islam are derivatives of Judaism. The second is that Jews actually lived within Western European Christian societies and within Islamic-Arab Eastern societies here in the Middle East. How do I know this is a reason? Jews did not traditionally live in India, except perhaps in one small place named Cochin, or in China, Japan, or Korea. So those Eastern nations did not have the Jew in front of their eyes, in the street, to blame for every shortcoming or failure, unlike societies in Europe and the Arab and Islamic world, where Jews actually lived. And since the Jew is not from us—as we say in Arabic, “nisht fun undzere,” not from us— Lio • 09:04 That sounded like Yiddish to me, but yeah. Mordechai Kedar • 09:07 Right. Since there's a Jew living across the street, he's different. He speaks a different language. He prays on different days. His clothing is different. His religion is different. So he's the one to be blamed for every shortcoming, every problem we have in the Islamic and Christian societies. The proof is that Jews did not traditionally live in those countries—India and so forth. These are the two main reasons for Jew hatred: religion and the mere fact that Jews live within societies in the West and in the Islamic world, in spite of all the differences. This issue of a Jew living within us became more acute after the State of Israel was established. Before the state was established, Gentiles and others were shouting at Jews, “Go to Palestine!” My parents heard it in Poland in the 1920s and 1930s before they came to Israel: “Go to Palestine!” Now they say, “Go to Israel. This is your country. Why do you have to be here? Why do you have to dwell among us? Why do you have to eat our food?” And there are those who would say, “Why do you have to poison our wells?” This is what I mean. The mere fact that a Jew, in spite of Israel's existence, still lives within these societies—they don't get it. They don't understand it. Why the heck do Jews stick to our societies, although we're different, although we're a Christian-like country, like the United States or other European or South American countries? They are not Christian. They are not Americans. They are not French. They are not Norwegian. They are Jews. And they claim they're a different nation to such a degree that they need a state for themselves. So let them go to their state. Why do they have to be here? Lio • 11:20 Just to add, because you brought up a bunch of good points, some of which we've addressed over the years here: on that last one, Jews aren't the only minority living among a large majority. Why that allergic reaction to the Jew and not to an Italian who comes to America, or an Irish person? Besides the period of adjustment—a couple of decades when people go through the process and eventually become Americanized, become American—with Jews, it doesn't happen. Jews always get singled out, even after three generations in a country, right? Mordechai Kedar • 11:57 Here, the main issue is religion, because Italians, Poles, most of them are Christians. So it's easier to think about the French, the British, and the Romanians as an integral part of America because, after all, we're all Christian. And don't forget that the United States was established on Christian ideas, very Christian ideas, as a promised land and so forth. The Jew never mingled in this religious issue. He was always apart. Take this and the fact that Jews were always blamed for dual loyalty, which was confirmed by the fact that in many synagogues in the United States of America, you have two flags: the American one and the Israeli one. For us it's okay: we're American citizens, and our dreams about Israel, our support, are for Israel. This is what the two flags mean. The non-Jewish American, when he sees this, says, “Hey guys, decide. Are you American? Are you Jewish or Israeli? You can't have it both ways.” Lio • 13:22 But even that feels a little missing, because I lived in New York. Seth lives there. You have Little Italy, you have Italian American Day, Irish American Day. People celebrate their nationality, and it's fine, and then it gets tucked away. The reaction feels disproportionate. Everything you say is true, but why such a reaction to the Jew when others enjoy the benefit of the— Mordechai Kedar • 13:59 As much as I understand, traditionally there is no Italian hatred or English hatred or French hatred, but there is traditionally Jew hatred. And here the tradition comes out from under all the layers of equality and emerges to the surface when the Jew is singled out. Now, you can see the same thing vis-à-vis Muslims. They call it Islamophobia. Let it be. I don't think there is such a thing as Islamophobia, because a phobia is an irrational fear of something that doesn't actually have to make you afraid. When it comes to Islam, the fear is rational. When you see terrorism all over the world, especially in the States, when you see what happens in Europe to European culture, with country after country being occupied by Islamic influence, mobs, and you see once in a while— Lio • 15:10 Young unemployed men. You can say that. It's okay. Mordechai Kedar • 15:12 So when Americans start to see what happens in Europe, you see real fear of Islam. It's not Islamophobia. A phobia is irrational; this is very rational. But still, the Jew is—look at what happened in Pittsburgh. The attack on the synagogue in Pittsburgh a few years ago was carried out by a white supremacist who was angry at the Jews who were advocating giving Syrians asylum in America because of the atrocities in Syria. Since he hates Muslims, meaning Syrians, he attacked the Jews who were active in organizations advocating asylum for these Syrians. So here it's the combination of the Islamists whom he doesn't like and the Jews who facilitate the migration of Islamists, as he sees it. The Jews are there to be blamed for everything that goes wrong, according to what people think. Why would God do that? Unfortunately, Jews are too involved, in my humble view, in scandals. Meyer Lansky—people still remember the Mafia guy. They don't care about the Italian Mafia, but a Jew who is part of the Mafia draws attention. Weinstein, Epstein, Madoff. Too many Jews. Lio • 17:18 On that, we're with you. Because what we say is that Jews, like it or not, are hubs in the network of humanity. So they always find themselves in these very interesting positions— Lio • 17:30 —where a lot of money or ideas or influence pass. It's every food product that was ever innovated, every suitcase company— Seth • 17:40 In almost every kind of innovation there has been in humanity. Lio • 17:44 Financial instruments, technological innovations. Seth • 17:46 There's some Jew in there. Mordechai Kedar • 17:50 Even Levi's. Even Levi's. Lio • 17:52 Of course. So that's exactly the point. Mordechai Kedar • 17:55 Mattel, Goldman, [unclear]. Lio • 17:57 Yeah. Hollywood, we know. Hollywood, pornography. Seth • 18:02 Every single place we go, there's some Jew. If you see any kind of cultural revolution or something happen, there's some Jew in there. And probably even among ISIS, there's some lost-tribe Jew in there, organizing something. Who knows? Lio • 18:20 Fundraisers. Seth • 18:23 But the thing I think is most interesting about what I've heard you talk about, Moti, has to do with the mindset—the Arab mindset and the psychology. What I see is that in the West, people have no comprehension that other people could think differently from the way we think, could have a different impetus for life besides the one we have. I could imagine sitting down with someone to listen to one of your talks, and I don't even think the words could enter their ears. There's a story that the Indians couldn't see Columbus's ships approaching because they had no concept that such a thing could exist. I don't think people can really comprehend or fit the things you're saying into their view of reality. I think it's worthwhile to understand, if you can lay out a little bit of what we're dealing with. Then we can circle back to this thing called Jew hatred. Lio • 19:44 Seth, let me make that question even sharper for the benefit of our listeners. Moti, very clearly, very simply, when you strip away all the noise around Muslims and Islam and Islamophobia and all that—what we've asked, and we've had some Muslim guests on the show—is: what is the endgame of Islam? Where do Jews and Israel fit into that vision? Where does the West fit into that vision? Because I think people think that, overall, everybody can get along if you just understand the other person's interests. That's the Western mindset that I think is slowly killing them. Maybe give us a glimpse into the Muslim— Seth • 20:25 —mindset. Maybe if we give them a little more land, they'll behave. If we give them a little more money, maybe they'll behave. If we can work something out. What is the endgame for Muslims? Mordechai Kedar • 20:38 First of all, Islam is a religion, or a scheme of life, based on texts: the Quran, the Hadith, meaning the oral tradition, the Sira, meaning the biography of Muhammad, and writings until this very day, because every day at least one more book is published about Islam. These are the texts, and these books contain everything: love and hate, peace and war, being moderate and being radical. There is a 180-degree scale between the most moderate Muslims and the radicals. Let's talk about one side. There are many—and I emphasize the word many—millions of Muslims who couldn't care less about Islam. They drink whatever is poured into their glasses. They eat whatever falls on their plates. You can draw caricatures of Muhammad. You can say whatever you like. They were born Muslims, but they don't care about Islam at all. Every possible sin, they commit, and they don't care about anything connected to Islam. They were born Muslims. They're MBB: Muslims by birth. Nothing more. Lio • 22:12 This is the most moderate side. Where do you find them? Mordechai Kedar • 22:20 Everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. That's one pole. At the opposite pole are people who will slaughter you if you dare to pray in a different way, with different wording or a different tradition. They'll slaughter you if you raise your eyes and look at their wife in the street, although she's fully covered. They'll chop your head off and put it on the fence of your home to warn everybody, just like ISIS. ISIS is at the other pole. All the Muslims in the world are at some point between those who couldn't care less and those who will chop your head off because you pray with different wording. All Muslims are at some point on this scale. Now, this scale has all kinds of characteristics. For example, you can be born into a family that's located at a certain place on the scale, but during your life you either become more religious or more radical, or less. That's one thing. Second, in every framework, like a family, there could be one son who's here and another son who's there, and they live together. I had twin girls in my class, twin women, students. One wore a hijab and a jilbab with a garment, and her identical twin sister went around in pants and a shirt and exposed her [unclear]. They were born together, raised together, with the same parents, the same place, the same environment, the same everything. They ate the same food. One came out on this side of the scale, the other at a lower place. And they lived together. They came together to the university and lived together. They had the same problem. Third, even one person judges one thing from a certain place on the scale and another thing from a different place. For example, he could be drinking wine but not whiskey because the quantity of alcohol in wine is less. He drinks wine and doesn't care so much about this, but if you dare to draw a caricature of Muhammad, he'll chop your head off. So he looks at different things from different stations, or different numbers, on the scale. Seth • 25:26 You have a Jew who doesn't put on tefillin, but he'd never eat bacon. Mordechai Kedar • 25:33 Pork. Right. Lio • 25:35 But somehow, with Jews, it doesn't end with chopping someone's head off. Why, with Muslims, does it have to end with someone's head coming off? Mordechai Kedar • 25:43 This is from the Quran. Lio • 25:45 No, I— Mordechai Kedar • 25:46 And this is a tradition in the Islamic world. Lio • 25:49 I get it. I totally get it. Mordechai Kedar • 25:54 By the way, this is the major punishment today in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, I think some 300 people every year are executed by beheading. Lio • 26:05 Yeah, beheading. It's very big. Mordechai Kedar • 26:07 So what I'm saying is that this is the difference between Islam, which is a scheme of life based on texts, and Muslims: between those who don't take it seriously at all and those who take it all the way seriously and implement everything, as they think, in the most radical way. If you take organizations, ISIS is the most radical. A bit less radical is Al-Qaeda. A bit less is, let's say, Hamas. This is the way you go along the scale. This can also be applied to the Shia. In the existence of this scale, Sunni and Shia are the same, because there are Shia Muslims who don't care about everything and don't do anything, while others in the Shia world perform everything in the most extreme way. Let's say in Iran they kill people in the streets because they think they're rebels against Allah, because they rebel against the regime. According to Iranian ideology, the regime in Iran is enlightened by divine light. So whoever protests against the regime actually protests against Allah; therefore, the death penalty is the only thing you can get. This is the difference between radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. It's a very tricky way to pose it, but this is how I analyze it, and I think you have to see it this way. When it comes to Israel, most Muslims, especially the more radical ones, look at Israel from a religious point of view, through a religious lens, which says that Israel as a Jewish state has absolutely no right whatsoever to exist. Why? Because Israel is a threat to Islam. The first reason is that Judaism, according to Islamic tradition and ideology, is null and void. Why? Christianity replaced Judaism, but Christianity was also replaced by Islam. So Judaism was canceled twice: once by Christianity 2,000 years ago, and the second time by Islam 14 centuries ago. So if there is no Jewish religion, why do we need a Jewish state? Lio • 29:13 Or Jews, for that matter. Mordechai Kedar • 29:15 Yeah. The second reason is that the Land of Israel is actually an Islamic land, because in Islam there's only a one-way ticket for any country: to enter the house of Islam, not to get out. Let's say Spain was under Islamic rule for more than 700 years, between 711 and 1492, and all of a sudden became Christian again. What is this? This is against the rules of physics, because land has only a one-way ticket into Islam. The same thing with the island of Sicily, southern Italy, and large parts of the Balkans. Lio • 30:00 By the way, this is also true for individuals. Once I take on Islam, I cannot leave Islam. Mordechai Kedar • 30:07 Even if you converted to Islam when you were drunk. Lio • 30:10 Yeah, because I see them converting people on the streets in London and in all kinds of neighborhoods. “Just put on the hijab, just do this.” And they don't even know that now you can, again, lose your head for trying to leave. Mordechai Kedar • 30:24 Even if you converted to Islam when you were drunk and didn't know what you were doing. So who the heck is allowed to take the Land of Israel, which they call Palestine, from the Islamic world and give it to the Jews? What? Balfour, the evangelical Christian who was Britain's foreign secretary in 1917? Who the heck gave him this land to give to the Jews? Lio • 30:52 So this is the ultimate insult, really, right? It's the ultimate insult. Forget about anything else. Mordechai Kedar • 30:59 Well, this is the second reason: the land. The third reason is that Jews are not a nation. Jews are communities that belong to all the nations of the world. A Jew in America is an American who happens to be Jewish, just like many other Americans who are Christian, Muslim, or outright infidels. A Jew in Morocco is a Moroccan Arab who happens to be Jewish, just like other Moroccans who are Muslim. A Jew in Russia is a Russian national who happens to be Jewish, just like other Russians who are Christians or whatever. So Jews are not considered a nation. They're a religion, and religion doesn't make a nation. They're communities that belong to all the nations in the world. The fourth thing is that Jews, anyway, must live just like Christians under the Islamic yoke as dhimmis, with very few rights. For example, a Jew and a Christian are not allowed to ride a horse, only a donkey. A Jew and a Christian should walk in the middle of the street, where the sewage canal is, and not on the sidewalk. In the Middle Ages, in the Middle East, there were no sewers under the city. Everything that came out of the household ran in the street, and not only from the kitchens. The Jew and the Christian had to walk in this sewage canal to denigrate them because they were Jews and Christians. Jews and Christians should be marked: a Jew with a yellow patch or yellow scarf or yellow hat. This is where the Nazis got the idea. Lio • 32:44 Right. Mordechai Kedar • 32:45 And this is from Baghdad in the ninth century. Christians should be marked in purple: a patch or scarf or hat. Why? Because Jews and Christians are impure, so Muslims should see them from far away and step to the side in order not to touch them. A Jew and a Christian should pay the jizya, meaning the poll tax, every month while being humiliated, as stated in the Quran: crawling on the ground, giving the tax from their hand, getting a kick, and running out of the tax collector's room. And there are many more rules like this under which Jews and Christians should live in Islam. As a result, if you combine everything—the Jewish religion doesn't exist, the land belongs to Islam, Jews are not a nation, and anyway they should live under the Islamic yoke—the outcome is that Israel, as a Jewish, independent, sovereign state on the Land of Israel, has absolutely no right to exist. It is against Islamic thought, Islamic ideology, and Islamic texts. Therefore, the mere existence of the State of Israel is actually against Islam. Seth • 34:10 So what's up with the Abraham Accords? Mordechai Kedar • 34:13 And this is a challenge, something Muslims cannot fathom. They cannot accept it religiously. This is why organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, and all the others against us are waging jihad, holy war, against Israel in order to save Islam from the resurrection of Judaism. And this is the issue. It is a religious war. And not only this. From Balfour, the evangelical, to John Hagee, the evangelical who pushed Trump to move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, it is a Jewish-Christian conspiracy against Islam to bring Judaism back to life in the form of a state, police, army, government, and all the manifestations of the State of Israel, which resemble the resurrection of Judaism. What will become of Islam, which came into the world to replace both Christianity and Judaism? This is why all those who fight against us are, in their minds, fighting to save Islam from the return of Judaism to life, backed by Christianity. This is their mindset. People in the West, who are usually liberal, cannot believe that there are still people in the world who would fight, who would get killed on the battlefield, because of religion. After all, in Europe today, I think more people define themselves as atheists than as Christians. I'm afraid that in the States, the situation is more or less the same. So when Western culture loses its bond to religion, people stop understanding the nature and essence of the wars being waged against Israel and against them as well. Because don't forget, migration to Europe and America is part of the grand jihad against Christianity: to go to these countries, take advantage of the democratic environment, establish organizations, infiltrate the core of the countries—the parliaments, city halls, governments, the economy, everything—in order to take those countries from within. This is how Islamic migration should be viewed in Europe and America. I think Western Europe is gone already because it's irreversible in too many places: France, Britain, Belgium, Holland, Spain, maybe Germany as well. It's irreversible because Islamic migration has taken over many parts of the economy: drivers, cab drivers, people who work in car assembly factories, mines, harbors. Rotterdam in Holland, the biggest harbor in Europe, already has 70 to 80 percent Muslims living in this town. The mayor of Rotterdam is a Muslim, already for [unclear] years, more or less. Many branches of the economy in Europe have been taken over by Islamic migration. Now they cannot kick them out. Who will be the taxi driver? Who will be the bus driver? Who will be the truck drivers? Who will work in blue-collar industry in these countries? This is why I think that, in the foreseeable future, you will see Western Europe running as Islamic countries. I'm 74 years old. Maybe I won't see it, but people who are younger will definitely see Europe running as Islamic countries. Yes, this is real. This is not a theory. America still can be saved if Americans wake up to see what happens in Europe. The Atlantic Ocean is not wide enough to keep America safe from the same phenomenon we're seeing today in Europe. And if Americans allow this mass migration of Muslims to North America—I'm talking about Canada as well—this is the end of Western culture in these two countries. Seth • 39:23 So are things like the Abraham—I agree with you, it's hard to sit with it, but we really see it happening. The Abraham Accords, or the peace deals with Iran, or a peace deal with Hamas: are the Arabs just lying in all of those Abraham Accords? Is it possible that there are moderate positions, or that money can supersede these beliefs and people would be willing to make peace for the sake of economics or the brotherhood of man? Or is this just buying time? Mordechai Kedar • 40:10 Maybe in America. Here in the Middle East, the scale of priorities is totally different from the Western, American pyramid of priorities. Here in the Middle East, religion supersedes many other things. However—and here comes the big however, which we should all bear in mind—you remember what I told you about being moderate and being radical? The Abraham Accords were signed with the Emirates, with Bahrain, with Morocco. These countries think differently. They don't think like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Iran, or Hezbollah. From their point of view, they say something else. They say, “Look, Israel is a Jewish state. Britain is a Christian state, and so are France, Spain, America. They're states of Jews here and Christians there. Yes, these countries don't have a right to exist, because Christians and Jews should be subjugated to Islam. However, Allah enabled the Jews in Israel and enabled the Christians in many other countries to have their own states. We don't know why. Allah never gave us a report, and Allah doesn't owe us any report. Allah decided what He decided.” Because what? Could the Jews have their state for 78 years already without Allah's consent? Never. Could the Americans have their own state for 250 years without Allah's consent? Never. The French, the British, all the others—of course Allah agreed. We don't know why. We don't know what Allah's accounts are. Allah doesn't give us accounts and doesn't owe us anything. “If Allah thinks Israel has no right to exist, Allah can evaporate Israel in one second. He doesn't need us. Without us, Allah is what, handicapped? Allah is omnipotent. He can do whatever He likes at any minute. So He doesn't need us—the Emiratis, Bahrainis, Moroccans—to be His executioners.” So we live in a world as it is, as we say in Hebrew. We live in a world as it functions, and we adjust our life in general to the world as it is. Of course, they pray five times a day. They fast during Ramadan, 29 or 30 days. They go once in a lifetime to Mecca for Hajj. They're devout Muslims. Yes, I was there. I saw them go to the mosque and everything. Yet they don't think about the world—America, Israel, whatever—through the lens of religion. They look at it from a totally different approach. Yes, they're religious. Seth • 43:35 Are those countries not interested in eventually wiping out Jew hatred? Can they be healed from Jew hatred? Lio • 43:45 In other words, do they represent a sort of evolved state of Islam, where Muslims, or Islam as a whole, say, “Okay, God is”—like the Jews say, right? God is there. He knows what He's doing. It's all for the good. If I don't like something, I have to change something in myself because it's the Creator. Who am I to criticize the Creator? So this is a more evolved approach to life in general, and maybe we can live with it, no? If we just wait long enough, maybe all Muslims will become this version of evolved Muslims. Or not? Do they represent the anomaly? Mordechai Kedar • 44:30 Or the opposite. Those moderate Muslims actually— Seth • 44:34 That's the question. Mordechai Kedar • 44:35 —they're aggravating the other ones, who become more radical because of the moderates, as a result. Let me give you an example of what happens in the Emirates. According to the dhimma rules—the rules under which Jews and Christians should live—the Jewish home and the Christian home should be lower than the Muslim home. And the synagogue and church, which are allowed, should be lower than the mosque. In the Emirates, there's the Abrahamic Family House, which is actually three buildings: one church, one synagogue, and one mosque. Perfect, nice design, concrete and wood. The same height, the same width, the same length, the same everything, the same size, exactly to the millimeter. Three buildings. What is this? Here you are. They don't take this issue seriously. Not only this. In the Emirates, there are also Indians, people who came from India and serve in the government of the Emirates. They have their own house of worship. And Hindus are viewed in Islam—unlike Judaism and Christianity, which are tolerated as dhimmis—as not tolerated, because Hinduism is viewed in Islam as sheer idol worship. Yet Indians, meaning Hindus, in the Emirates have their own place of worship, although it is totally against Islam. Why? Because the emir, the founder of the Emirates, said, “I don't know why Allah created them as infidels. I don't know, but they exist. They are creatures of Allah, after all. They have their tradition, which I totally disagree with. I totally don't accept it. But this is their tradition. Let them live. Allah created them. After all, they're human beings. They have emotions. They have beliefs. I don't share this belief, but it's their belief. Why shouldn't they have their own house of worship?” This is their approach: live and let live. Leb un loz lebn, as we say in Yiddish. Live and let live. This is the approach of the Emirates, Morocco, Bahrain, and so forth. And this is the approach that enables Jews and Christians to have whatever they have, because we're not Allah's executioners fighting against those people. Lio • 47:28 So I think the question is, if I'm a Jew listening to this, and I'm listening to you, you've just laid out a picture that's not easy to reconcile. It's not something I can say, “Oh, okay, fine.” It makes me uncomfortable, right? Maybe there's a chance for some convivencia of sorts. Maybe we can live together, but maybe not. Maybe the radicals are going to win. Maybe the Muslim Brotherhood—which we don't have time to get into. I'm inviting all the listeners to listen to your shows and to other very important scholars and experts who talk about it. When I heard about the plan of the Muslim Brotherhood, how they were born, how they interpreted the text, and what they're planning to do with it—this is all-out war. There's no— So the question for the average Jew listening is, what should I be doing? In other words, where does that put me as a Jew? What does that mean? Do we now need to invest in bigger armies? What is the destiny? What is the horizon for Jews? We're asking specifically because I think Seth and I believe—and not because of our idea, but because of what we've studied and searched for—that Jews have a special place in all of this. Everybody's human. Everybody's part of that system. But Jews have a responsibility that's not shared by others. They also have a role. Islam and Christianity also have a role in this, but Jews have a certain role to play as well. So the question is, are Jews going to be able to play this role in the system? Do we stand a chance? Or is the window of opportunity closing? Are we running out of time? Are Muslims going to take over the West, and is it going to be the end of the West and Jews as we know them? What's the horizon? Can you give us a picture? Mordechai Kedar • 49:41 In this regard, as you raise this question, I think we, the Jews, are actually the canary in the mine. First of all, we're here in Israel. And by the way, this takes us back to the beginning of this session, where we talked about Jew hatred. The first reason, religion, we don't have much to do about because we cannot change their beliefs. But the second reason, the mere existence of Jews living among others, this can be changed. Because El Al still flies from Newark to Israel. It takes you, what, 10 hours, and you finish the galut when you come. And you finish this reason for Jew hatred. Lio • 50:27 You hear that, Seth? It's only 10 hours. You're 10 hours away from the ending. Seth • 50:31 So you sign the contract, that's going to fix it? We'll get everybody on a plane. Mordechai Kedar • 50:37 So what I say is, this reason can be fixed in a very short while. They'll for sure have— Seth • 50:45 —another reason to hate the Jews. If all the Jews go to Israel, I'm sure they're going to find another reason to hate us. Mordechai Kedar • 50:51 Of course. They have the religious one, don't forget it. But this reason—the existence of the Jew who's different right in our neighborhood—can be changed today very easily. A one-way ticket on El Al, by Nefesh B'Nefesh. You don't even have to pay for it. Ten hours from Newark, 14 hours from L.A., and here you are. So this is what we can do to do something. However, we, as a canary in the mine, can be the whistleblower. First of all, podcasts like this one, in English. Every English speaker in the world can hear it, understand it, and draw conclusions. This is very important, what you do here on social media. And today there is social media. That's one thing. Second, scholarly work. Jews, for many years—as much as I recall now, for almost 200 years—have been at the forefront of research about the Middle East. Names I can cite right now: Ignaz Goldziher, a Hungarian Jew who lived in Germany and wrote a lot of research about Islam. Even Abraham Geiger, one of the founders of the Reform movement, wrote a very important book, What Did Islam Take from Judaism? He wrote it in German. It's in English today as well. And many other researchers from the nineteenth century, early to mid-nineteenth century, Jews who generally lived in Germany, were at the forefront of research about Islam. This, by the way, is one reason why Muslims hate Jews, because Jews were the first to expose the real face of radical Islam. But they contributed a lot to the world's knowledge about Islam. Today, with Google Translate, you can translate the Quran in no time and read it in a very good translation. The Hadith, meaning the oral tradition, was once closed to others because almost nobody translated large parts of it. Today, Google Translate gives you a translation you can read, including all the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. Even the history books of Islam, where they are proud of massacres they perpetrated, all the way from Pakistan in the East to Spain in the West. On hundreds of occasions, they fought against infidels in the lands they occupied, from Pakistan in the East to Spain in the West and beyond, into Africa. Who were the slave traders who hunted Africans and sold them to America? Most of them were Arabs. What I'm saying is that today, with modern technology, much of the history of Islam, the reality of Islam, and the books of Islam are exposed to everybody who wants to read and learn. And here, it's not only Jews who invented it. It's now Western culture, altogether Judeo-Christian culture, which in my view should defend itself from this assault of Islam by migration and by all other means. Look at Qatar, a country that promotes the Muslim Brotherhood with endless piles of money collected from gas, which the world is addicted to. They're Islamizing the Western world. They buy politicians. They buy academic institutions. You can read the report by ISGAP, by Professor Charles Small. Lio • 55:17 I just saw him talk about it again, but he's been doing it for almost a decade. Mordechai Kedar • 55:21 They're buying politicians. They're buying media outlets. They're buying influencers. They're sponsoring all kinds of things, and they invest in the West. Nobody today dares say something wrong about Qatar, although Qatar has been in bed with the Iranians for many years. This is why Arabs hate Qatar, like Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, and even Egypt, which was part of the siege on Qatar between mid-2017 and 2021. Not because of the color of their eyes. It's because of what Qatar did to the Arab world by aligning with Iran and Al Jazeera, which shook the Arab world and destroyed it totally. The Western world is very easy to buy with Qatari money and other money from Arab and Islamic countries. This is one of the weak points of the West: people's greed for money. They would sell their countries, their politics, their nations, to gain some money from the Qataris and others here in the Middle East. This is the problem of the West: everyone does whatever he likes, even if it's against the interests of his own people. Seth • 56:48 The problem, Moti, is we're not going to fix human nature. And if there's a trajectory to that, we can anticipate that greed is only going to get bigger. But you can have a guy who's greedy and zealous for his soccer team, his football team, to win. Or a guy who's greedy and zealous for his hedge fund to make a lot of money. Or greedy and zealous to go kill the infidels. The direction of that energy may be possible to shift. To think that we're somehow going to fix this without a few generations of educating the whole world about human nature—I don't think that's realistic. So for Jews, for us, what's the big-picture goal? It's clear now. You've painted a very clear picture of the—I don't know if there are a few billion, and some are on this side and some are on that side. Let's say maybe a few tens of millions are on the extreme side, maybe more, whatever that number is. What is our goal? Let's put all that aside for a minute. As Jews, what's our big picture? What can we aim all of our intelligence, all of our greed, all of our prayers, all of our energy, all of our resources toward? Do we have some hopeful future? Or are we just waiting to be—are we just going to outsmart them with one incredible beeper operation after another and stay on our heels? Or is there some messianic future of the brotherhood of man, or rebuilding the Third Temple, and we'll all live in peace and harmony together, and nation won't lift up sword against nation? Mordechai Kedar • 58:51 I'm not in a position to fix the world. You know, tikkun olam, which some Jews said before they fix themselves. But this is too— Lio • 59:08 Hold on, you just hit the nail on the head. That was hiding in Seth's question. What we're always saying here on this show is that the only thing you can change is yourself. Really. If you think about it, when you look at all the odds and everything against you, what can you do? You can work on yourself. And that's what I think we want to ask of you, as someone with such a keen understanding of all these threats from the Islamic side, threats to the West, and everything. In addition to blowing the whistle, as you said, in addition to waking people up to what's happening around us, what should we, the Jews, do among ourselves? Because what I'm seeing is, if we don't get along, even externally, strategically, militarily, we lose. We get slaughtered. Not to mention there's an even more internal degree of unity that can take us to a much higher place. Forget security. We're talking about really much— Mordechai Kedar • 01:00:07 Look, Lio, if there are Jews like Bernie Sanders who encourage Islamists to take New York over, and Michigan, as we saw as well—and you know what? He was one of the biggest supporters of— Seth • 01:00:25 Let's leave Bernie on the side. Mordechai Kedar • 01:00:27 Hussein. Barack Hussein Obama. Seth • 01:00:30 Yeah, it's disgusting. Even in the exodus from Egypt, the Midrash goes into a whole account that not everybody left. So let's leave those guys. Let's leave Bernie Sanders and the guy who runs Mamdani's social media. Let's leave them for the— Mordechai Kedar • 01:00:44 I take him as an example that we have to fix ourselves before we fix others. We're with you. Lio • 01:00:52 What does it mean to fix ourselves? Give us your vision. Mordechai Kedar • 01:00:56 To totally delegitimize Bernie Sanders as somebody who speaks for us, who speaks for anything. I've never heard any real Jewish organization come out with big announcements against Bernie Sanders. I don't know why. Or maybe I didn't see it, and there is one. I don't know. And then there are others. In California, there's somebody— Lio • 01:01:23 Yeah, a lot. A lot of them. We know auto-antisemitism, as it's called, is apparently very popular among Jews. Mordechai Kedar • 01:01:34 First of all, we as a community of Jews should start looking at our existence as something that's not assured. Many of us will still remember or know exactly what happened in Europe only, what, 80 years ago. It's nothing. It's a spark in history. What's 80 years? Many of us are still traumatized by what happened in Europe. My parents were—they weren't there, they were in Israel—but their families were exterminated. My uncles were exterminated in Germany. Germany was the bastion of human rights and political freedoms. The Weimar—the Jewish people lived there in great prosperity. And look what happened. Can it happen in the United States of America? When you listen to people like Tucker Carlson, I'm not sure America isn't walking the same path as Germany. I'm not sure. Can you ensure it? Seth • 01:02:46 No, we cannot. We've said the same thing. Mordechai Kedar • 01:02:48 There are too many people today who ride on this wave of Jew hatred. They are, let's say, loyal Americans, yet the Jew is the problem. In my humble view, we should definitely be whistleblowers for Western culture—first of all, to protect it from itself. Woke culture, for example, is actually undermining Westernism. Because when you stop believing in American values, when you say America has no right to exist, you're undermining the best democracy in the world today. Because Europe isn't anymore. Europe cannot fight for democracy anymore, because Europe is being influenced too much, and day after day becomes more influenced by Islamic intentions, Islamic will, and Islamic minorities. Seth • 01:03:47 Do you see any kind of hot war happening in Europe between Christians, maybe in Ireland or England, where Christian people get fed up? Mordechai Kedar • 01:04:00 It's actually the question of the frog in the frying pan. Lio • 01:04:05 Yeah. That frog's been on the show many times. Mordechai Kedar • 01:04:12 But let me tell you, today there's a rise of European right-wing parties. You see the Sweden Democrats, you see Marine Le Pen in France, you see Strache in Austria, you see Meloni and, formerly, Berlusconi in Italy. You can see it in many places. The problem is that right-wing people don't make more babies. And the solution for migration in Europe is more European people. The problem in Europe is that the European homo europaeus—I mean, the European man—is actually exterminating himself. It started in the First World War, continued in the Second World War. How many dozens of millions of Europeans, let alone the Jews—Germans, French, British, Russians, many others—were exterminated in these two world wars? And those who were killed did not bring children into the world. Add to this the decline in fertility in Europe. So European peoples, the nations in Europe, are in a sharp deficit of people. That's why they're addicted to migration. Angela Merkel, in 2015, brought no fewer than a million Syrians to Germany. Of course, the overt reason was to save those people from atrocities in Syria. Yes, but she brought them in to replace the Turks who became older, because they needed new blood in German industry. They needed workers. So she invited millions of Syrians to come to Germany. Today, the biggest and most dangerous crime gangs in Germany speak Syrian Arabic. Thanks to Angela Merkel. This is the problem with Europe. What do Europeans want to do? They want to be high-tech people, lawyers, engineers, accountants, politicians, and media people. That's all Europeans want to be. They don't want to be builders. They don't want to be workers in factories. They don't want to be drivers. They don't want to be anything. So they need all these migrants to be construction workers and so forth. This is the problem in Europe. Lio • 01:07:02 That's clear. There are many problems in Europe. Europe is tired. They've already gone through their imperialist phase. They're already in decline. They're not having children, as you said. So it's really just a matter of time. It's almost like natural forces. They're all going to take over and maybe even create a historical rebalancing act, where once these countries had their hands in the Middle East, the Far East, Africa, and now these countries are sort of evening the score. Again, naturally, nature just does this act. What I'm seeing—and this is also at the heart of our show—is that over the years, I've always heard the Arabs, the Arab world as a whole, were never able to really come together, to form lasting unity. They cannot do it inside their own countries. I don't think there's any one country that can say, “We have national unity.” Most of their countries are formed of tribes. Tribalism overtakes nationalism. Maybe even in countries that feel nationally united, it's very fragile. This unity can break at any moment. Whereas Jews were always looked at as the ones who could maintain that solidarity. And we see what happened when Jews lost this solidarity. So it's a two-sided question. Do you believe Arabs can actually unite and do something against the Jews? Or do you believe Jews can unite again in a way that will ensure their survival—and more than that, even? Mordechai Kedar • 01:08:55 Well, first of all, Arab nationalism is apparently a relatively new term. It came to the Middle East more or less in the mid-nineteenth century, and this idea never became a general idea people believed in. That's why Gamal Abdel Nasser, who was the herald of Arab nationalism, lost it in the Six-Day War and then in the Yom Kippur War, and Islamism took over. Today nobody really believes in nationalism in the Arab world, not even local nationalism like Syrian or Iraqi nationalism and so forth, because these states are totally fragmented along ethnic lines—between Arabs, Kurds, Turkmen, Armenians, and Berbers in North Africa—along tribal lines, as you mentioned, and along religious lines, like Muslims, Christians, Druze, Alawites, Sabeans, Mandaeans. In Iraq there are something like ten religions in Iraq alone. And of course sectarianism: Muslims are divided between Sunni and Shia, Salafis and Sufis, and all kinds of others. Christians in the Middle East have, I think, almost 20 denominations. Some won't speak with others. Societies in the Middle East are highly fragmented along ethnic, tribal, religious, and sectarian lines. They never became nations in the European terminology, like Belgium. Belgium is also divided between people who speak French, the Flemings, and Germans. But they don't fight each other. They don't kill each other. They sit with each other, and of course they have their differences. They don't generally get married among themselves, but they live in a normal state. Belgium, excluding the Muslims, is a normal state. In the Middle East, no. The Middle East doesn't work. Because first of all, if you're not our co-religionist, you go to hell. And if you don't go there by yourself, we'll send you to hell. And if you're not from our sect, like Sunni or Shia, you go to hell. And if you don't go, you know what we'll do to you. So this is, unfortunately, the Middle East. This is the source of all the problems in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Libya—all these failing states. The only successful states in the Middle East are those based on clans. Like Kuwait, which belongs to a clan named Al Sabah. Al is a separate word in Arabic; it means family, extended family. Al Sabah. Qatar belongs to Al Thani. Dubai belongs to Al Maktoum. Abu Dhabi belongs to Al Nahyan. Saudi Arabia belongs to Al Saud. That's why these countries are functional, because they're based on the tradition of the Middle East, not on ideologies imported from the West, which don't fit Middle Eastern culture, traditions, habits, and thoughts. And that's why I came out with the Palestinian Emirates plan. Instead of building a Palestinian state, which will end up like Syria, which today is governed by Al-Qaeda people like Jolani, we don't need that. Because a Palestinian state will turn into Hamastan, either by elections, as happened in January 2006, or by coup d'état, as happened in Gaza in June 2007. Whoever advocates establishing a Palestinian state actually advocates establishing a Hamas state, which nobody in the world wants or needs—except Turkey, Qatar, and Iran, of course. Lio • 01:13:23 And the fools in America. Mordechai Kedar • 01:13:25 And the fools in America, right. Those who still dream about kumbaya around the fire all over the world. As an alternative, I suggest establishing emirates, which is the only paradigm that works well in the Middle East. An emirate for the clans of Hebron, in Hebron. Another emirate in Jericho for the Erekat clan of Jericho. Another one in Ramallah for the Barghoutis. Another in Nablus for the three clans of Nablus: Masri, Tuqan, and Shak'a. Another in Tulkarem, meaning the Arab cities in Judea and Samaria—in Tulkarem for the Karmis—and another one in Qalqilya and in Jenin. Israel should remain forever in the rural areas, annex them to Israel, and deal with each emirate separately. If they behave, they can go out: go to the Haifa harbor, go to Ben-Gurion Airport in Lod, go to Jordan, come to Jerusalem. They're normal people. And actually the sheikhs of Hebron, with whom I'm in contact, want to join the Abraham Accords. So where exactly is the problem? Who can be against it? It means a Palestinian state will not be there. After all, a Palestinian state will end up like Syria, which nobody really needs or wants, as you mentioned, except for some Jews in America. And this is the only solution that can assure Israel peace and security and assure them a good life, a normal life. Lio • 01:15:22 By the way, of all the plans I've heard, this sounds to me the most realistic one, for many reasons. I encourage people to read about it. You write about it, you talk about it. Mordechai Kedar • 01:15:38 Wikipedia: the Palestinian Emirates plan. Lio • 01:15:42 So I want to ask you, before—because I know you've got to—we've got to close. So— Mordechai Kedar • 01:15:48 Last question. In ten minutes I have a debate on Russia Today in Arabic about the Israeli attacks on the Syrian airport, the airbase of Abu al-Duhur, which the Turks wanted to take as a base in Syria. Lio • 01:16:10 So we're not going to solve that problem. I want to ask you a personal question. You've outlined beautifully the situation with Islam. Anyone who listens can draw their own conclusions. You've proposed a plan for the Emirates to be applied here locally. That's great. The question is, as an Israeli and a Jew, what should the Jews do in all of this? Are we good? Should we just continue doing what we're doing, fighting with each other and all that? Or is there something we need to do as well? Again, turning the lens back on ourselves: what should we do? Mordechai Kedar • 01:16:55 Our cultural DNA is the culture of the machloket, of dispute. Lio • 01:17:01 That's okay. Mordechai Kedar • 01:17:01 It's embedded, deeply engraved into our culture, our being, because we're people who operate our brains all the time. This might be the reason so many Jews have won the Nobel Prize, because we never feel satisfied that we know everything. We have to research everything. We have to analyze everything. We have to understand everything in depth. Therefore, whenever there's a difference between one Jew and another, they start arguing. And as we say in Yiddish, tsvey Yidn, dray deyes: two Jews, three opinions. Because everyone, even within himself, is divided between this position and that one. He believes in this and also in the opposite one. That's why our culture is a culture of debate and of finding the core issues in every question. This is our culture. We cannot fight it. And you know what? We shouldn't. We're thinking people. We cannot accept anything without debate. We should check everything, examine everything, until we come to a conclusion. Yet we should always remember that we're brothers and sisters. What happens around us, in our world, is that they forget it. They keep killing each other. Look at the atrocities in Syria. Look at the atrocities in Iraq, in Yemen, between themselves, let alone us. Even between Palestinians. Look at what happens in Libya, in Sudan. All these atrocities. Because they don't have that sense of brotherhood or fraternity, because of tribalism, because of schisms between all these sects and religions and everything. We Jews argue with each other. We don't fight each other. We don't kill each other, baruch Hashem. We had the incident of Rabin. We have some. But in general, we sit with each other, even in the Knesset. They're polarized to the extreme in the Knesset, yet when it comes to real debate or real things, they cooperate with each other. Many laws throughout the life of the Knesset were accepted by both the coalition and the opposition. When it came to real issues like social security, like helping needy people, they cooperated on things they saw together. And the shared issues are much greater in number and in weight— Seth • 01:19:57 What can we share before it's too late? What can we agree on? Mordechai Kedar • 01:20:08 Look, at least when it comes to Israel, here we Jews—look at the war now. The units of the IDF are full of people who are, let's say, right-wing, those who wear yarmulkes, religious to the core. Even in Lebanon, they pray every day, and every prayer is preferably with a minyan. And people who wouldn't know how to hold a siddur, a prayer book, in their hands. They don't even know how to do this. Yet they fight together in the same tank, in the same cannon, in the same ditch, and they protect each other. They'll fight to the death to save the other. So when it comes to real things, they put aside all the differences, and they fight together in everything. And here in civilian life, too, people work together, people cooperate on many things. Of course there are differences. Sometimes they don't eat together because one eats kosher and the other doesn't. Of course there are differences. I'm not denying differences. But the shared issues are much greater in number and in weight. And this is why, as long as we live our life by ourselves, which means Jews in a Jewish state, I'm more than sure that this state, even initially, can live forever. We have to take care of our enemies because they threaten us, because they don't want us altogether. They don't want to abolish the occupation of 1967. They want to abolish the occupation of 1948. Even the PLO, which is considered by some Jews to be our friends. And let me finish with this. This is the PLO flag and the map. This is the flag, and this is the map. And all the rest is commentary, which isn't needed. This is what we have to open our eyes to understand: the situation around us. There are people around us who will accept us and have accepted us. We have to encourage that. And we have to fight to the end those who want to exterminate us, like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and, above everything, the Iranians—or the Iranian regime. Let me thank you for hosting me here. In five minutes I have the debate on Russia Today. Lio • 01:22:54 To be continued. Absolutely. Can you do us a favor and read the short quote we put in the chat? We ask every guest to read it. This is from Rabbi Shmuel David Luzzatto. Mordechai Kedar • 01:23:09 “Our nation's success depends only on brotherly love and connecting as one family.” Right. I totally believe in this. Lio • 01:23:18 Thank you so much. Good luck. Go see your debate. Good luck. Thank you. It was great having you. Please like, share, subscribe, and follow this important conversation. We'll see you all next week. Thank you, Moti. Good luck. Mordechai Kedar • 01:23:35 Thank you. Thank you.