w/Jonathan Sacerdoti | Journalist, political analyst

Lio: Welcome to The Jew Function. Once more, I'm Lio. Hello, I'm Seth. Hello, everyone. We are still on the front lines combating antisemitism the only way we know. I don't know if it's because of the work we've done, but now, instead of one in four adults showing antisemitic sentiments in recent years, the numbers have gone up to one in two. I don't know if it's because of the great work we've done to bring awareness and shed light on this topic, on Jews. Maybe that light we shed has created more antisemitism. I don't know; I doubt it.

Seth: Yeah, the diagnosis is you're halfway to the cure.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Seth: I guess.

Lio: Exactly. We do believe that when everybody's aware of the issue and agrees that there is an issue, we can finally focus on the treatment. That's one of the key points. We've been inviting many people here to the show to talk about this—prominent thinkers, writers, activists. People in politics and beyond, Jews, non-Jews. I kind of feel like we're on par with the Oxford Union, almost. Maybe not as old. We've heard a lot of great ideas. Unfortunately, a lot of them don't work. We don't want anyone to feel discouraged because I believe this is part of the issue; we need to see—

Seth: Raising mud over a few billion years—

Lio: Until it finally—

Seth: Becomes this perfected, loving creature.

Lio: It's a long—

Seth: Process wrought with many challenges.

Lio: Precisely. So there are ups and downs, and it's okay. We didn't think it was going to be a silver bullet. We're also here at a somewhat historic moment, even though this is a recorded episode. It's January 15th, and there are signs of a hostage deal on the table. I feel like the air is loaded a bit more. It's been a while since we spoke to someone from the little island on this side of the pond. Most of our guests are from the U.S. The last one from the UK was Reverend Haley, an avid supporter of Jews and our cause. It's kind of a bittersweet thing. Every time we get on air, it feels bittersweet because we're doing what we love doing. We're trying to open the discussion about antisemitism, really open it up.

Seth: That's what we love doing. We love unity, love, and a good life.

Lio: Fine, okay, but we're getting there, you know.

Seth: You love looking great on the beach. This is the gym.

Lio: Exactly. This is the emotional gym where we try to squeeze the hearts together and dig into our history, words from Jewish sages, network science, psychology. We leave no stone unturned to find the solution to this problem, which I know seems like it's growing. Again, it's a good sign because it will point us to what's not working and hopefully toward what could work. I'm more than excited to bring our guest today because he's someone out there, in the media. He's a broadcaster, journalist, TV producer, and he covers stories related to the UK, Europe, terrorism, extremism, race relations, the Middle East. But he's also someone who is putting himself out there. He's not simply reporting or writing about it from a distance. He's just recently, I think, last week or a week and a half ago, was invited to the prestigious Oxford Union Debate. For those not familiar, it's a great tradition going back to the early 1800s. Prominent people go there—leaders, thinkers. I think people are familiar with some famous moments where Ben Shapiro was there, and Konstantin Kisin was there, talking about the Jewish problem. And now we're really—

Seth: Privileged. Hamas, what's the guy?

Lio: Oh, yeah, Joseph. Son of Hamas. We are privileged to have our own Oxford Union, what is it, alumni, veteran? Fresh from the debate. Jonathan Sacerdoti, which actually means Cov. So we'll just call him Jonathan Co. Jonathan, please join us. Hi, good to be with you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming.

Jonathan: So you are in the UK right now, correct?

Lio: I am. I'm based in the UK predominantly, yeah.

Lio: We have this list of things to discuss, and hopefully, we'll get to most of them. But I think we would be remiss if we don't address what's happening right now, unfolding behind us, somewhere not far from here. I'm in Israel, Seth is in New Jersey, you're somewhere in the middle, but not far from here, this hostage deal. I'm curious, even though we're not really a current affairs podcast, it's hard to ignore that maybe we're going to see a few more hostages alive back in Israel. What's your feeling about this deal and this moment in time?

Jonathan: It's definitely an interesting time for us to be speaking. We're speaking at a monumental moment not just in the recent war, but I think in Jewish history. I've felt that way for the last fifteen months, that what we've been watching unfold is not just another war but a turning point in our people's history and the world's history. I would say that this hostage deal, which does seem to be slowly being confirmed, is happening. There have been a couple of tweets now or posts on X, as they should be called today, by Donald Trump, and it seems like it's been agreed. Gideon Sa'ar has announced that he's leaving his diplomatic trip to Italy early to get back to Israel tonight. I think it will be confirmed by the Cabinet in the morning in Israel. It definitely feels like things are happening after 15 months of a grueling war. I, like many, am very torn on this. Obviously, as a human being, it's deeply ingrained in me to want to see all the hostages released and back home with their families, those who are still alive, and those who aren't, for their bodies to return to their loved ones. At the same time, I'm very anxious about the deal because all the details that have come out so far don't seem great for Israel and don't look like a proper victory in real terms. Of course, in one sense, it's a victory to get back any or all of the hostages. In another sense, we know what happens when you release serious terrorists with blood on their hands, as has happened in the past since the '80s. We know that Yechia Sinwar was released in the Gilad Shalit deal, and we know exactly what he went on to do. It's just one very famous example, but there are plenty of others. I think it's a very difficult moment for all Jews, all Israelis, and all people of conscience around the world. It's a moment of potentially deep relief if we see hostages coming back alive, but it's not a moment for celebration. It seems like Hamas is going to be left in Gaza, left in control of Gaza. It seems like Israel is ending the war, which could or may not be a good thing in the circumstances, depending on how many of the goals have been achieved. I guess I, like you, am feeling very mixed and emotionally uncertain about what's going to happen over the coming days.

Lio: Just as you were speaking, Trump already took credit for his victory in November.

Jonathan: Yeah, I saw it. He said the epic ceasefire agreement could only have happened as a result of our historic victory in November. To some extent, he is right because this is when it's happened. It's happened after threats that Trump made as soon as he won. He said there had better be some form of release of the hostages by the time he came into office, and that's pretty soon. So it does seem like that's put some pressure on, but actually, again, it seems like the pressure may have been put on Israel as much as on Hamas. That pressure may have resulted in Israel making massive concessions, which aren't really beneficial in the long run. In these hostage deals, this is Israel's kryptonite, as I wrote in a column just yesterday. What I mean by that is Israel has shown enormous strength over the last fifteen months. It showed total failure on October the seventh, but then, after that, it's been miraculous watching its victory after victory in terms of military and strategic moves. They haven't been unadulterated by awkward arguments with the US and others in the international community, therefore slowing down the war when it could have moved faster and cost fewer lives on both sides. I would say that pressure by Trump, potentially, to come to some sort of deal right now may have weakened Israel's stance. We know from previous hostage deals that the more Arab terrorists see Israel's weakness in its resolve, which can also be described as its strength in its humanity to return hostages and try to preserve human life, the more likely it is they're going to carry out future hostage operations and terror operations with those released terrorists. So, we may be saving lives now, but we may be costing lives later. Not least, the hundreds of soldiers who have died during this war should not be dying in vain just for Hamas to maintain control in the Gaza Strip.

Seth: It seems like many people in appointed positions in Trump's administration— We're not a political podcast here, but—

Jonathan: I just want to say that I hope there are many moves we're not privy to. We have to think these people should be smart enough to understand what we're dealing with and that we're only seeing what's on the surface. Under the surface, they have many other plans to achieve better results. Because on the surface, like you said, you're incentivizing them to take more hostages.

Jonathan: One would hope so, but I'll say this: there's been a lot of optimism about Trump coming back into office in terms of the Middle East, but he is an unpredictable figure as well. That's part of his strength in dealing with adversaries. But I would say he's predictable in other ways. Trump is, I suppose, war-averse. He's also keen to make deals, which is both a strength and a potential weakness because a rush to make deals with enemies who want your complete destruction may end up in compromise. Any kind of compromise with an enemy that wants your complete destruction, an enemy with no boundaries or ethics, who will kidnap, rape, murder, and torture men, women, children, elderly people, babies—that's not something you can compromise with. A forced compromise to make a deal is not necessarily the best outcome. So, I do agree with you that I hope there are parts of the deal we don't know about that are more beneficial. Maybe there are secondary parts to do with the expansion of the Abraham Accords, as he hints in that Tweet with Saudi Arabia and what have you. But even then, I think that the state of Israel is at its best when it shows its strength. Negotiating and making compromises with terrorists is really the opposite of strength in some respects.

Lio: So what you're really saying is that it's a terrible deal.

Jonathan: I can't tell you because that's the old cliché: anyone who's talking about it doesn't know the details, and anyone who knows the details isn't talking about it. I can't say that, and I also can't say outright, as a human being, that a deal returning hostages after 400-and-something days is terrible. There is something magnificent, hopeful, and enormously relieving about those people or some of them coming back. But yes, in terms of strategy, military, and the long term, it might be a terrible deal.

Lio: The question is, do you think that the West—and by now, Israel is very much tied to the West and Western thinking—do you think we've lost our ability to wage and win a war? Has the whole world sunk into this place where nothing can reach a conclusion or a complete stop? Everything just seems drawn out. There's no real victory. What's going on? Has our aversion to violence taken the best of us instead of dealing with the issue, like ripping the band-aid off in one pull? Are we trying to avoid conflict and avoid being the bad people? Because we're so humanitarian, it's hard for us to see ourselves in this position, and we end up living the famous adage: if you're merciful to the cruel, you end up being cruel to the merciful. Isn't a similar thing happening in the UK with the wave of immigrants that don't share the same values?

Jonathan: I think to unpack that question, there are quite a few areas to discuss. One is to say that I think Israel has had a uniquely difficult task over the last fifteen months. After what happened on October the seventh, it had a sort of dual purpose to its war. And on the one hand, it had to show the Arab world that it wasn't a paper tiger, that this legendary intelligence and military ability wasn't fake. It did have what it said it had. And it didn't look like that on October 7th, not just because the attack happened, but because it took so long for any kind of response to really take place. You know, people I've spoken with from the kibbutz were stuck in their panic, in their bomb shelters, desperately trying to stay alive, calling for help, and not getting it, to the extent that some of them were calling onto live TV shows and the army still wasn't there. So, given that that's happening, there was the need for Israel to reassert its dominance and its strength in the region militarily and in terms of its intelligence. So I would say it did do that quite effectively, whether it's apparently knowing granular detail about the whereabouts of Hez leaders, including Nasrall, and then showing its amazing technical and daring intelligence abilities.

Lio: But even there, we didn't go all the way.

Jonathan: We stopped

Lio: Short of the Lut River. We didn't finish the job.

Jonathan: So I think the second side of it is that on the other hand, while you have to show massive strength and deterrence to the Arab world, there's also this obligation to show humanitarian concern to, let's call it, the Western world. And it's quite hard to do both of those things at the same time. It's like they say, you can't dance at two weddings with one tuch. So I think that Israel was, in effect, having to fulfill both of those. And as a result, it didn't really manage to do either completely. The Western world does not think of Israel as a humanitarian and entirely ethical operator in this war, and the Arab world doesn't think of it entirely as a determined and strong force that will stop at nothing because they've seen that with enough pressure from the US or from outside, it will bow to these sort of fake concerns of Hamas for the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people. And actually, we all know Hamas steals all of the humanitarian aid or most of it. So I think that it had that dual purpose. But I'm one of these people that isn't too scathing about Israel in that respect, because I think Israel's decisions and choices are usually between two extremely unattractive options. And so when that's your choice, it's inevitable that you don't come out with perfection. And I always say when people ask, what's the solution to the conflict? or what's the solution to Gaza? or what's the solution to the war? I always say if you want solutions, do crosswords. That's not what this is. Instead, Israel is just trying to do the best it can from a series of very difficult choices, and the hostage deal that's unfolding now is exactly one example.

Lio: But Jonathan, I mean, when I read the story of David and Goliath, he didn't just wound Goliath. It ended with Goliath losing his head. That was the end of it.

Jonathan: David didn't have the UN breathing down his neck and

Lio: Joe Biden

Jonathan: And even David Lammy among the Jewish lobbies against Israel, right? Again, I don't mean to be dismissive or mocking of all of those international bodies because, among their ridiculous claims, they often have legitimate concerns as well. I think we don't live in biblical times. I don't know what the answer is. I would say that on the whole, Israel has done pretty well with the available options over the last 15 months. This hostage deal will be a really interesting one because we'll see whether it was a good idea or a bad idea. And also, we'll see what the details are. We still don't really know. I'm just seeing exactly as we're talking, and it may be a bit weird to watch this back, not in real-time, but there's now a discussion in the Prime Minister's office indicating that it was actually Prime Minister Netanyahu's firm stance that made Hamas cave in at the last minute on its demand to change the deployment of forces along the Philadelphia axis. So there are so many details here that we need to know about and to see who won and who persuaded whom. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. What matters is what's left on the ground. Is Israel retreating and leaving Hamas to rule over Gaza? Even if it's diminished militarily, it can claim a victory and maintain control over the Gaza Strip and the Palestinian people there. And that is pretty disastrous, too. It means it's a matter of time until it restores its capabilities, and we're really back to where we were. I mean, it may be ten years, it may be less.

Seth: Jonathan, I want to point out that in the last few minutes, when you describe the situation that Israel is in, it really rings of the character of who Israel is, of who the Jewish people are. We're in between. You said between the east and the west, right? I hear it as just the same kind of concept that Israel has always been this people between heaven and earth. It's like we are between these two opposites. On the one hand, we're supposed to be godly on Earth. And on the other hand, we're supposed to be, well, you understand what I'm saying. This is also an impossible thing because it's not enough to just live in the ghetto or in our own little enclave. We're supposed to be people who are bringing the light, a light to the nations. And there's no way... the books of Kabbalah talk about this concept that the Bina descends down into Malchut, soils herself, you know, like a parent who comes down and plays in order to get the child to grow. The parent lowers down and plays on the floor with the child. It's beneath, you know. I'm a professor, I'm a successful businessman, what am I doing on the floor? But specifically, in order to raise the lower one up, I have to go down, equalize myself with the lower one, like someone who goes and hangs out with troubled kids on the street. He has to go and he has to be able to speak on their level. He needs to be able to hang with them and then slowly influence from there. So Israel, we don't look at the people of Israel as just this geopolitical thing. We look at the concept of Israel, the people of Israel as this eternal situation. From that light, if we are just dealing with... Well, first of all, it's an impossible situation. It requires heavenly assistance or something, like standing at the Nile. What are we going to do? We need a miracle here. From that perspective, if we were to zoom out, I'd like to hear you speak about it from a more historical, is not the right word, but maybe an archetypal perspective. We just spent half an hour on the ground. But now, if we look at this through a more archetypal kind of lens and who these people are, because maybe from there, we can be clear about our mission and maybe help us understand where the path forward is. Because our path forward, we understand, is not just a political path. And it's not just waiting for a miracle path. Does this ring true?

Jonathan: Do you feel something in that? I think there's a distinction here in what we're discussing, and it's appropriate for your podcast, between Israel and Jews, between the Israeli nation, the State of Israel, and the Jewish people. Of course, there's a massive amount of crossover between the two, and even the parts that aren't necessarily crossed over in the Venn diagram still often have an awful lot to say about one another, good and bad. Among the things we were going to discuss today, before everything got in the way, were all sorts of ideas about Jewish exceptionality or specialness or chosenness and the effect that has on us as Jews, individually or collectively, and also the effect it has on non-Jews, those who love us and those who hate us. I would say that that plays into everything you've just been talking about and everything we mentioned earlier. This, for example, this idea that Israel has to engage in a war with the most ruthless of enemies and show its strength, but at the same time display to the world its humanity and its concerns. This phrase I don't like very much, "the most moral army in the world." I don't like it because it doesn't really mean anything. I understand what they mean by trying to use that phrase, but you can't really measure that. It's not a quantifiable thing. Like, I can't give every army in the world a morality rating and then decide who was the most moral. But it's a very Jewish idea, I suppose, to say, well, we are the most moral army in the world because within the

Seth: When it comes to killing people, we're the most.

Jonathan: Okay, so that's the first problem with it. Secondly, I think it's the idea that Jews, and therefore to some extent Israel, see ourselves as having to strive to set an example in our behavior. So when I was a child growing up in a predominantly non-Jewish country, I was always very aware that to some extent my own behavior didn't just represent me or my family. It also represented, to some people, Jews or my people. There is that sense, I think, that you carry with you as a minority or a member of a minority group that you are always, at all times, an ambassador. Israel is the same in the sense that I think it is always trying to prove to the world that it is moral, humane, humanitarian in its concerns, but also strong and able to defend itself against existential threats, of which there are many, and the Jewish people too have experienced many existential threats throughout our history. So it's an impossible task to balance those two things effectively. Maybe it's one of the eternal challenges that we have as Jewish people and that Israel has as the Jewish state. One of the things I think I realized on October seventh was that we will always be hated by some people. It's perhaps a fantasy of Jewish people and non-Jewish people that we could eliminate prejudice or hatred against us or any other minority group. I think I realized the Jew is never someone who will be fully accepted by others. And that is quite a depressing thought. But at the same time, I think it's a really important realization because it means that you're not necessarily aiming for this utopian perfect world where everyone loves everyone, but you're aiming for a world of safety, of security, of strength to defend yourself, but always at the same time trying to set an example. When it comes to the issue of chosenness in Jewish thinking, every nation has a unique role in advancing civilization. But I think that Jewish chosenness, if you think about how Rabbi Jonathan Sacks explained it in his writing in "The Condition of Jewish Belief," Jewish consciousness emphasizes moral and religious duties, not superiority. And so that's how I think, traditionally, we see chosenness. A lot of our enemies say, you think you're chosen, you think you're superior, you think you're better. Whereas many Jews who think about it understand chosenness to mean that we are chosen with obligations and responsibilities among all the nations. But we're certainly not supremacist, and we are not trying to convert or evangelize others. Quite the contrary, we make it virtually impossible to become one of us. We highly discourage it. It's not because we want to condemn others to not being part of our group. It's just that our role, according to Jewish teaching and thinking, is to be exemplary and to have a sort of spiritual role. So, I think that in some respect, that is something that Israel grapples with. Though Israel itself, while it is the Jewish state, is not a state run by Jewish law or rabbinic law, thank goodness, in some respects. It has input from Jewish thought and thinking and the rabbinate in certain areas, but it's certainly not run according to Torah law in the way that, say, some Muslim states are run according to the Sharia.

Seth: I don't think anyone else is doing what we're doing.

Jonathan: And

Seth: Yeah, and that's exactly it. Nobody can comprehend what we're talking about. How could there, how could who would even say that antisemites

Jonathan: Have anything

Seth: Valuable to say without saying we're antisemitic or with self-hating Jews, but there's something that everybody's missing in this whole picture. And the reason why the solution is so close is because we're not waiting for anyone else to change. We're not waiting for the laws to be enacted. We're not waiting for a new politician to get elected. The answer is way closer than everybody thinks.

Lio: Like us, hit the bell thing on YouTube so you can get a notification when a new episode is up. This is The Jew Function. Let's get back to our guests. Right. So I guess I think we can't speak for everyone, but since we have you here, we can ask you more specifically. You know, how do you see this place of Jewishness? Because, I mean, from what you said, it does sound a bit depressing, that picture. And one could beg the question, why bother? I mean, if it's so gut-wrenching and horrific and all that, you know, and we're doomed to suffer this way. It's like, Sis, what's the story here? On the other hand, when you read the biblical story which gave birth to our nation, there is a destination. We start somewhere, we rise, we fall, but there is a destination. There is a land, a place, and when we leave the geographic expression of that land, but rather look as Jewish sages refer to Israel as a desire, not a physical place, but as a desire that unites us. We all share the same desire, yes, straight to the Creator, to that upper force. Okay, not some deity in the clouds, but a force, a high force in nature, a force of love. And so that aspiration is there. That destination is prescribed there. And in fact, a lot of the things that were prescribed in that crazy, quote-unquote book, we see them happening. Like, you know, the prophet said Jews are going to return to Israel after 2,000 years. Who thought? It's like it never happened to any other nation. There you have it. So we kind of, you know, we have this relationship with this, with this, with our history, with our legacy, with our sages, where we take some things. We don't take everything. We kind of pick and choose, trying to please the nations of the world but also be okay by ourselves. Where do you stand in this? Like, how do you see yourself as a Jewish human, as a Jewish person? What does it mean for you?

Jonathan: Well, I think that's a very personal question in the sense that each one of us will have our own version of it. And I suppose mine will be specific to my upbringing, my background, my education, and then just my natural sensibilities and tendencies. So I can only answer personally rather than globally for all Jews. In that respect, I mean, Jewishness for me is an amazing positive in my life, and it's deeply influenced by, of course, my family and then my ancestors and my history, as well as my own personal experiences and biography. My father, who died a few years ago, was a survivor of the Holocaust in Italy. He was hidden as a five-year-old child in first a convent in Florence, and then, as the convents were being raided, his father, who was a rabbi, went and warned them. He and his brother, who was three years old, were taken out, evacuated, and taken to a Catholic orphanage in the nearby countryside where they spent nine months. For me, I grew up knowing that story from my father. I also grew up as a very integrated member of British society. I was born here in Britain and went to establishment British educational institutions. I went to St Paul's School, which you can guess from the name is not Jewish. I went to Oxford University. I had the best education I could have done in the British sense. Also, from home and from my synagogue, I had a Jewish education. My home, above all else, taught me Jewish values and Jewish ethics through not even lessons, but through the actions of my family, my parents, and my grandparents.

Seth: Where did your father get his values from if he didn't have his own parents to raise him?

Jonathan: Well, he did. Thank God after the war, after nine months, he was reunited with his parents. They all survived—him, his brother, and his parents. They were all separated and in hiding. It's an amazing story of utter selflessness of the people that rescued them, actually, who were members of the Catholic clergy. While the Catholic Church was not exemplary in its behavior during the war, certain members of it were, and the Florentine Catholic clergy are responsible for me being here. To me, I have always felt in my mind, because my father made me feel it. They saved my life. I wouldn't be here were it not for the actions of those extraordinary people and at great risk to themselves. You know, there's a story of the Nazi fascists coming to the door of the convent that my father was being hidden in, and the mother superior, Madre Maria Agnes Tiboli, who was a tiny woman, stopped them at the door, held up her crucifix, and when they said they thought there were Jews in there, she is said to have said to them, "Here there are only children of God, and you too are a child of God." And they turned around and left. Were it not for that, who knows what would have happened to my father and the other Jews who were then in there? So I think that it's not just Jewish history that's influenced me. The enormous lesson from the people who attained the status of righteous among the nations, for example, who saved Jews at great risk to their own lives, has inspired me, thanks to my father's activities during my life. To the extent that I would say that I consider human beings to have the capacity for great good and for great evil, each one of us. And it's my hope that when we are unfortunately challenged with decisions like they had, that we would rise to that challenge and do what is decent and human. Actually, just to refocus this back on what's going on in Israel and Gaza at the moment, it's been something of a massive disappointment to me that I haven't seen any stories of so-called ordinary Gazan civilians who we hear a lot about in the news, rescuing hostages. There have been, as far as I can tell, maybe there's something we don't know yet, but not a single Gazan civilian has been known to have provided helpful or useful information to save hostages. In fact, on the contrary, I remember when there was one of the Russians' hostages managed to escape, he was turned back in at one point, if I remember correctly, by other Gazans. I don't want to generalize about them, but it certainly struck me as somebody who's here thanks to the kindness and goodness of ordinary non-Jews that it didn't happen here, or we're not aware of it having happened yet. Maybe some of the hostages that were saved were as a result of some information. At one point, not that long ago, millions of dollars were offered very publicly to anyone in Gaza who would help save hostages. And even with Hamas deeply weakened, it doesn't seem to have happened. So that is, to me, it says something about the cultures that we grow up in and what we're taught. So to bring it back to Jewishness, I was taught very much as part of my Jewishness to act in a humane and nonjudgmental way towards other people in terms of prejudice and to hope that I would behave as those non-Jews did who saved my family's lives. But at the same time, I think there's a great deal of continuity which is central to my Jewishness and many people. So even if each one of us may not feel as deeply inspired by certain religious elements of our Judaism, I think that most Jews I know do feel at least a very heavy burden or responsibility of continuity that our people, our ancestors have survived and carried out certain moral and religious and traditional activities for so long that our role in that chain of history is to carry it on too. And so certain things are fundamental to all Jews. Even those who are apparently very unattached and unobservant, there are still things deep within us that I think we carry from our ancestors.

Lio: The way you articulated it is beautiful. I mean, I think it was as close to a definition, but in, you know, using abstract terms. Usually, we don't get a lot of definitions here on the talk where we ask people, and it's okay. As you said, you speak for yourself, and it's unique. However, we are often judged as a collective, certainly by the other nations. And so we strongly believe that anything you say here can and will be used in the collective consciousness of Jews because that's just how it works, apparently. I think we are sometimes reluctant to appreciate it or to accept it or to admit it. But we are part of a collective, whether we like it or not. That's how the world sees us. So you could say it's by godly decree, by nature, a fluke of—doesn't matter. This is reality. Have you been recently to the British Museum in—

Jonathan: I live not far from there.

Lio: Okay, so I went when it relaunched to write a piece about it. I found it fascinating because what it showed me was it felt very American, if I can say that without it meaning to sound like an insult. And it was, by which I mean, it was kind of like a brilliant museum. I thought to myself, I don't know what to make of this. It's a brilliant museum if an alien landed on Earth and asked what a Jew is. Which was one of the things you suggested to me you might ask today. And at the same time, I couldn't help noticing that none of the bits of information on the plaques was more than three sentences long, and none of the sentences was more than seven words long, and it almost felt like a kid's book version. And the thing that really struck me, but then I understood this was the point of the museum. It was trying to be the museum of the Jewish people. This is what it basically calls itself. And how can you be the museum of the Jewish people when actually there are so many different Jewish peoples, never mind Jewish people, and we often don't like each other that much or agree with each other that much, but yet, as you've said, there is something uniting that we all have in common. So to me, what we all have in common is our history and our heritage that got us to this point as a people. And we may now no longer look like the same people if you take one from every part of our denominations or locations. But we are ultimately united by something in common. And that to me is the long chain of tradition and history and heritage. So that museum, one criticism I had of it at the time was that it's very modern, sort of museum now. It doesn't rely, as far as I could see, on the historical collection that a traditional museum relied on: items and things like that. A lot of it was information and multimedia and reproductions. But they had just bought the Sasso Codex, which hadn't yet made its way into the museum, the oldest edition of the, as they call it, the Hebrew Bible, the Torah, that I think the oldest complete version. They just bought it and they built this hall for it, or this room for it. I remember thinking, this is entirely appropriate, because if this museum only has one genuine real artifact in it, it should be that, because that ultimately is the thing, even if you're not religious, this is the thing that is central to all Jews, the Torah. And this was the oldest complete version they had. So I thought that was a sort of good cherry on the cake, if you—

Lio: No, it's beautiful that you brought this up, even as if you visited Israel as a member of the Department of Education and what's happening in schools and the move from within the department, both in Tel Aviv specifically, but also the occupation of all the clerical roles in the Department of Education by foreign funds and other players that have put in front of them the goal of taking out of that historic foundation of our people. No Bible studies in school. No, we don't even use to receive the Bible in our second grade, right? Learn all kinds of traditions by sixth grade. There's a huge movement. Obviously, there's now a counter movement, but I mean, these people work from within the country, the establishment to try to uproot the only hope that we have is that the education in general has been so terrible that even that type of progressive education might fail. But this is the thing that we're sort of trying to ask people: how can we keep this people together, even with all the differences? I mean, maybe you have a solution because you said, I'm sorry, I'm quoting you. You said that we need a concrete action, which is what is required. I don't know what you meant by that. I don't know if you meant toward the antisemites, or maybe an action within ourselves first.

Jonathan: I'm sad to say that the only thing that I feel in my life that unites us in a kind of meaningful way when we seem to be pulling in all directions does seem to be—

Seth: Hold on, Lio, should we all guess what it is?

Jonathan: I think it is tragedy.

Jonathan: But I don’t think that’s true either. That’s the point. I think what happens is we all have endless conversations about this with our friends and family. As Israel is a good example, Jews all over the world get lulled into a false sense of security. We think we can occupy our minds with the same things ordinary folk do, like judicial reform. Then, just as people are ripping each other to shreds over something important like that, something comes from outside to remind them that while it's important, there are things more important that require less division and more unity. At those times, Israel certainly shows it can come together in essential ways to do what it needs to do. That’s something quite Jewish. I said the other day, in a similar conversation, that if something similar, God forbid, happened here in London, like on October the seventh, I’m not sure if British young people, or British people generally, would respond as Israelis do. Would they put on a uniform drive of their own accord before even being commanded to go and fight? Would Brits from around the world, wherever they were, scramble to join in that effort? I don’t think it would happen here. I think it's partly because my generation has so little experience of that. It’s a shame because it means we've utterly forgotten our culture, values, ethics, and how important it is to defend them. We enjoy a great degree of freedom in the West. Here in the UK, we've always felt free, but freedom isn’t free. You often have to fight or sacrifice for it. Israel knows that, and sadly, Jews tend to know that. But I’m not sure your typical Westerner knows it anymore. I’m very scared that we as Westerners need to remember it and find it out before it’s too late.

Lio: Do you feel that you’re part of British society? And do you feel that British society views you as part of it?

Jonathan: I feel very British. I was born here. My father chose to be British and come here from Italy, much like Olim in Israel who choose to be Israeli. My father was a great Anglophile and decided to make his home in the UK. I was born here and received a very British education. I’ve always felt British, and I feel very proud of this country, which is why I get so moved and saddened by certain things that happen here today, particularly challenges to our identity, values, ethics, morals, and culture. But I’ve always been aware that in Britain, there will be people who see me as the Jew. I had my first conscious experience of antisemitism at university in Oxford when the Holocaust denier David Irving was invited to speak. Opposing that invitation brought out deeply antisemitic reactions from my contemporaries. That's when I started to look back and wonder if it had been there all along, and I just didn’t see it. At the British public school I attended, which was purely private, I wondered if certain teachers who didn’t seem to like me much were influenced by the fact that I was Jewish. It’s quite a nebulous issue because even when I feel deeply British and defensive of British culture, there are always people who will look at us differently.

Lio: That's the thing. In your Oxford Union debate, you talked about an appeal to reason and the establishment of the union as a place of enlightenment. But reason seems to have left the building in many parts of the world, and this hatred of Jews seems wholly irrational.

Jonathan: But we can solve it with reason, or maybe we need a different approach. In Britain, nominally a Christian country where now a minority identify as Christian, this shift in demographics brings thought to antisemitism. Christianity has a lot to answer for in terms of antisemitism. A friend of mine, a rabbi in Israel, said Christianity is possibly the biggest historical source of antisemitism.

Seth: We’re not asking. We know already.

Jonathan: The reasoning would be that if Jesus was seen as the Messiah by later believers, they question why the Jews, who knew him, didn’t accept that. Hence, they conclude the Jews were wrong, which breeds fear and demonization of Jews, translating into Islamic antisemitism. Islam also seeks to replace Judaism and Christianity, absorbing them into its own doctrine. When I talk about reason, as I did in Oxford, it’s fundamental. Humans have the power of reason, arguably unique among species. It’s essential to our success and must be honed. Although not everyone has given up on reason, those who reason the least often shout the loudest. We must encourage thinking, reasoning, and discussion. Rationality should guide us, even when shouted down by emotional arguments.

Seth: If we look at humanity as a pyramid with reason at the top, companies like Coca-Cola spend huge amounts on advertising because people can be influenced to do things through non-rational means.

Lio: Yes, and Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel Prize winner, showed that people don’t make rational decisions when negotiating. We’re feeling creatures more than we are rational. Reason stems from emotion. Advertising often bypasses reason because people have ingrained patterns that their tribe enforces.

Seth: We've been trying to convince people that Hamas is bad and that our fight is just.

Jonathan: Of course, and it’s interesting because humans have immense emotional tendencies. A senior political adviser recently told me that people vote emotionally at elections. Politicians know they must appeal to emotion—fear or optimism drive results. Successful politicians harness emotion, even suppressing reason at times.

Lio: We’re trying, through this podcast—The Jew Function—to address antisemitism, promote change, and avoid the historically inevitable catastrophe.

Seth: Any funds raised on our Patreon support getting this message out. It’s crucial for a safer, better world for everyone.

Jonathan: This is The Jew Function. While humans are emotional, reason is crucial, and successful arguments meld emotion with reason. Religions effectively do this. Islam, for example, speaks to emotional responses. The Quran promises appealing rewards to believers, which is a powerful tool for belief and persuasion.

Lio: I'm sorry, John, even without the afterlife, we see that Christianity appeals to this feeling of meekness, mercifulness, inclusion, right? It's that feeling. And Islam appeals to the opposite side. It's a feeling of power. And that's what attracts people, young people, British guys, going to join Al-Qaeda and ISIS and all that. It's a feeling of joining power; it's not reason. They will come up with all the reasons to support that emotional decision they've already made. So the question, I guess, is if you want to sort of bring it there, how do we harness what feels Jewish? Not the reason. And not only that, how do we work on that feeling between us? Clearly, we cannot control all these myriad forces around us. We're under the thumb of the US, the Saudis, and everybody has a stake; we're not truly independent. How we relate to each other, how we feel about each other, that's where we find independence. So, how do we attack that? Let's use our immense reason. You sound like a reasonable guy. How do we use that to cultivate a national feeling among all Jews, Jews in Israel, Jews in the UK, in the US? Because how goes Israel, goes the rest of the Jews. We see it now, it's clear. So how do we cultivate that nationalistic or collective feeling without just the fear of death?

Jonathan: I mean, it's a great question. I wish I had the answer, but I can hazard some thoughts. I think adversity brings out unity, but it's a shame if we always have to rely on great adversity. There's a cultural history of that being our unifying feature. There are many wonderful things about being Jewish to me. Ritual, tradition, and ethics feel correct and right. So to us, in the West, humanists might say you don't need religion to live an ethical life, but those ethics are based on Jewish values. My friend Melanie Phillips is publishing a book on this, stating that the foundational values of Western culture are actually Christian and Jewish, and therefore Jewish in origin. It's the things that feel right ethically or morally that are actually, at their foundation, Jewish. Ritual is an incredibly important part of Judaism. If I go to a Shabbat dinner almost anywhere in the world, there will be things there that feel deeply familiar, even if I’ve never met those people. The ritual continues tradition, a thread that runs through history. Why is Hanukkah such a popular festival? It has this cute ritual of lighting candles. These are rituals, and even crypto-Jews after the Spanish Inquisition maintained rituals like lighting candles on Friday nights. There's something very unifying about those rituals.

Jonathan: Candles, food, these are rituals. Even crypto-Jews after the Spanish Inquisition, centuries later, maintained these practices. It doesn't matter how you interpret it; there's something unifying. Without being too high church about it, rituals and traditions are deeply fundamental. Things like Brit Milah and Kashrut have survived through decades, locations, centuries, and millennia. They bring us together as well. So those things are positives, as are the ethics and morals many don’t think are Jewish but fundamentally are.

Lio: So this is great because, in a way, we hear people having a hard time defining what it is to be Jewish, but they are comfortable with rituals. It's these few things, Shabbat, Kashrut, that create a framework uniting people through action. Opinions don't really matter if we move in the same general direction around those milestones, holidays, the seventh day of the week, and so on. The problem is, in Israel, there's a chunk of the population, 10-15%, maybe more, who actively oppose that. They see it as a hindrance to peace or a hindrance to their ability to enjoy themselves on a Saturday.

Jonathan: People who are...

Seth: To pleasure yourself on Saturday.

Jonathan: I know.

Seth: I think it's a mitzvah...

Jonathan: To pleasure your partner, actually, isn't it?

Seth: Yeah, that’s what I meant to say.

Jonathan: I mean, if you enjoy it in the meantime, that's okay.

Lio: That's the point. They're trying to sever that which we all have. When pressed hard enough, everybody goes there, but yet there's this group that somehow...

Jonathan: Returns...

Jonathan: Let’s get back to Israel, not just the tragedy of October the seventh, but the good things about it, which maybe it took a tragedy to remind people about. One of the things that got me going to synagogue again was October the seventh. Many who never went to synagogue or weren't religious found themselves wanting to gravitate towards Jewish places, like a synagogue. At my synagogue, a Spanish and Portuguese Orthodox synagogue, they've added at the end of the service, everyone stands up and sings Hatikvah. I promise you, that’s the most emotional part of the service. It’s interesting that one of the things uniting people in that religious place is Israel. All these things feed into each other, and maybe that’s the answer: none of these things alone work. It's not about giving us enough tragedies, but about our response to them and our commemoration. People identify as Jewish through their experience of the Holocaust, but for me, the positives are more important. Positives often come in reaction to negatives, tragedy, or difficult moments. It's all a cycle, which may get me out of answering properly. Jews love a fight, a debate, an argument. Judaism values wrestling with ideas rather than submission. There's something rewarding in debate and discussion, the most orthodox Jews will say God gave us this law and they’ve developed ways to navigate it. That’s very Jewish, coming up with solutions, ways around things.

Lio: Yeah, that's how I got turned on to this Jewish negotiation. When I found out back in the day there were payphones with tokens you couldn’t carry on Shabbat, they painted them gold, made them into jewelry. You see religious people wearing keys as part of their belt. I remember seeing a kosher-for-Shabbat light; you revolve it to cover or show the light. It's flippant, but I think it's very Jewish, this idea of debate. When I was at Oxford, studying the Internet and literature, they taught us the Talmud was like hypertext, with links that go off in different directions. Jews invented the World Wide Web.

Lio: We, Seth and I, went deep into...

Jonathan: The rabbit hole.

Lio: The first 20-22 episodes of our show, it was us talking and going through history. Trying to find those patterns. Once you connect the dots, it’s hard to ignore all these coincidences or occurrences pushing us a certain way. From Abraham...

Seth: In Babylon through the modern day, basically. To a couple of years ago.

Jonathan: Yes, patterns...

Seth: That just keep rhyming with each other as it spirals.

Lio: It's hard to spiral. Hold on a sec. It's not just a cycle. Even though it’s painful, we get new discernments each time. It's not a broken record. Even if it looks like you’re changing costumes and repeating the cycle, there are new discernments. The world is influenced by us now. We have this idea of hubs and nodes. What happens in the Jewish people radiates to the whole world now. Whereas 2,000 years ago, even if Greeks came to learn from the prophets, it didn’t spill out to everyone within years. It took hundreds or thousands of years. Today, these cycles keep happening, with so many discernments that now we're at the point where whatever happens in Israel influences the world like we see today. You mentioned earlier, Lio, that forty-something percent of the world is now antisemitic. Everybody recognizes us.

Lio: Listen, I know you probably have to go. Right before we conclude, you started the talk on defining the deep state of who we are. By the end of the talk, would you define yourself as an optimist? Just a stark realist? What are you in this kind of...

Jonathan: No, I would say...

Jonathan: You know, it's funny because I've always fluctuated in my life. I mean, there was quite a long period where I thought I was a pessimist, generally. And then I also, at the same time, have always had a feeling of being very lucky. I realized that actually what that's called is being an optimist. You know, I felt very lucky about my father's story and that his family were all saved in that way. I felt lucky in those respects. I felt lucky that I had this heritage that I identified with and found incredibly nourishing personally, spiritually, and also educationally. I realized that it was a form of optimism. When my father got ill and eventually died from his illness, I discovered then that I was a massive optimist. He was diagnosed with cancer and told, "You're not going to survive this one. Have some chemotherapy that may help you have some extra time, which was months." And you know, I did what everyone does in those circumstances and went and did a lot of Googling. There was a 5% chance of something like a six-year survival in this situation. I remember talking with him, and he said, "Jonathan, you're in denial. You've got to face it. This is happening." And I said to him—I've never told this story publicly, so it's interesting—I said, "No, I'm not in denial. There's a five percent chance." I didn't spell it out because he might have thought I was mad, but I was thinking to myself, "You've beaten worse odds before." And I thought, in that sense, I was an enormous optimist suddenly. I knew my father would die some months later, but it opened my mind to the possibility that I might not be a total pessimist. I've recently settled on the mid-ground that maybe I'm a realist or an optimistic realist. So I look at what's happening now. It's a disaster what happened to Israel and to Jews since October seventh. It is nothing short of a disaster. I don't know how it will end up, but I see the potential for massive changes that could be positive in the grand picture. But it can never be positive that 1,200 people were killed. It can never be positive that the hostages were taken or abused and killed. Those things can never be positive. So, I think speaking in pure black and white terms of optimism and pessimism is difficult. I prefer a good healthy dose of realism. And maybe it's Jewish to have a hope and belief that we can rely on the fact that we're still here. So probably, we will still be here. That's about as optimistic as I think I can be.

Lio: This is good. Thank you for sharing that story. I feel like the truth is often found in those personal stories rather than big statements. How do you think we can advance from that? Some say it's not just a big tragedy but a revolution. You know, what's happening on the Israeli street and politics, the relationship between politics, the military, and the judicial system, and how we govern ourselves. It's nothing short of a revolution. But when you're in it, you don't know that it is. Nobody knocks on your door and says, "Hey, the French Revolution is happening right now." No, just people are getting beheaded, and the streets are blocked. But 50 years later, you read about it, and it was the French Revolution. Do you feel this is an opportune moment to change? And if so, where are we going to end antisemitism? We didn't talk about it much, maybe mentioned it twice in the episode, but how do we take that direction? That would be your closing statement.

Jonathan: As with all your questions, I don't know. But I think we should just carry on doing what we're doing and do it better, which is perhaps a fudge, but fundamentally, it's what we do as human beings, Jews or non-Jews. We need to speak up about the things we value and care about and defend them more, whether verbally or using reason or other ways. Reach out to more people, make our case, not in an argumentative or aggressive way but standing up for what you believe in. If you feel there's something wrong with doing that, maybe there's something wrong with the things you value. So, when it comes to Judaism, politics, or Israel, if I feel uncomfortable with my opinion, I really try to interrogate it, and even disprove it to myself. If that doesn't work, I need to shake off the discomfort and talk to others about it in the process. I feel we've all got to be a bit more overt in our expressions of our beliefs. When it comes to Jews, often we do it in response to antisemitism. After October seventh, sales of Star of David pendants went up. It's an interesting response. People ask me, "Do you keep your mezuzah on the outside of your house?" Of course, I do. I proudly wear my Judaism because if I didn't before, it allowed bad things to happen. The response to me wearing it proudly is positive. Even speaking very publicly on contentious issues related to Jewishness and Israel, I have overwhelmingly positive responses. The Oxford Union was an exception, but I'm not blind to the problems. We don't have a choice anymore. We have to make our case proudly but humbly and convincingly to show the courage of our convictions rather than keeping our heads down and hoping things will be okay.

Lio: Jonathan, here's a quote for you in the chat. Please indulge us and read it.

Jonathan: One does not live for oneself, but for the whole chain. Thus, each and every part of the chain does not receive the light of life into itself but only distributes it to the whole chain. Right. I think we all exist as part of a chain and a tapestry. Many people have expressed it in great ways, but that's among them. I agree with that. As Jewish people, despite all our differences, we do feel a sense of unity underneath it all. That's the point.

Seth: Please, God.

Jonathan: Amen.

Seth: Thank you. We're very happy to make your acquaintance.

Jonathan: Likewise, it's been a really interesting conversation, and it's my good fortune to have met you this way.

Lio: So that's it. We're stuck together for life, Jonathan. Feel free, if you're in Israel or New Jersey.

Jonathan: Opportunities...

Lio: We'd love to stay connected and continue this great work. For our viewers, a link to the debate is well worth seeing you standing up there. Please continue this great work, and you know, consider us in your corner. We have The Jew Function. As we said to everyone, like, share, comment. We don't need your money. Send it as a Patreon link, but we'd much rather you distribute this conversation because more people need to hear what we just heard today and find our place together. Thank you. Jonathan, Seth, we'll see you all next time with The Jew Function.