The Difference Between Being a Jew and an Israeli

Michael Isaac Shokrian [00:00] What you're saying right now, if I understand it, is that this singling out of the Jews has kept them going for this long. You're saying that if they weren't singled out, they probably would have assimilated and disappeared. That's a very interesting concept, because I never would have considered that. If people didn't hate the Jews so much, they probably wouldn't have them. It's the fact that they keep hating them that allows them to continue to exist and be a thorn in their side. Right or wrong, Jews are always calling themselves the chosen people, which is a little bit of ego. I'd never thought about this, but I can see how people might feel threatened by that. It might piss some people off. Maybe we don't always say it. We don't always say, “We're the chosen people.” Seth [00:56] Or if it's chosen to take out the trash, then that's something else. Lio [01:01] Exactly. That's what we always say. Chosen for what? Nobody's getting better rates at the bank here. Seth [01:09] Michael didn't realize he was going to come on the show to solve the biggest problem in the universe. He thought he'd talk about his book and his childhood. And we're saying, "Michael, why are we alive?" The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was. All things are mortal but the Jew. All other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality? Lio [01:37] Welcome, everyone, to TheJewFunction. I'm Lio. Seth [01:39] Hi, I'm Seth. Hey, everyone. Lio [01:41] We are here in another episode of TheJewFunction, the only podcast out there that is trying to get to the heart of the age-old problem of Jew hatred. Why do they still hate the Jews? Seth, why is it that they still hate the Jews? Don't answer that. Seth [01:57] We'll get to it in the episode. We're about to answer the question. Lio [02:01] No, no. We’ll keep them hanging a bit more. We’re not only talking about the problem of Jew hatred; we’re approaching it through the laws of nature, and we bring— Seth [02:01] Laws of nature? Lio [02:01] The laws of nature. What did I say? Seth [02:01] You said “laws of nature.” Lio [02:01] Oh, yeah. Seth [02:16] Does it have something to do with laws of nature? Lio [02:18] Yes: the laws of nature, historical patterns, the words of Jewish sages and Kabbalists, and even recent findings from network science. If all that sounds crazy, it is. But we dare anyone listening to challenge our findings. You can—and should—check out our first season. There's a link in the description and at the top of our homepage on YouTube and Spotify. It's going to blow your mind. Today we're having a great and very timely conversation with an Iranian Jewish American novelist. He's also an attorney and the founder of The Thieving Magpie, a literary quarterly—a place where you go to read stories. I know some people may have forgotten about that. He was born in Hamburg and raised in Los Angeles by way of Tehran. His work explores the tension between assimilation and identity, belonging and otherness, and what it means to build a life between cultures. His novel American Playground explores those same issues. These ideas sit at the heart of what we feel is the Jewish question and the Jewish answer. I'm very happy to have Michael Isaac Shokrian with us. Michael. Michael Isaac Shokrian [03:54] Hello. Thank you. Thank you for that great introduction. Very good. I appreciate it. Lio [03:59] Yeah, you liked it. As long as it was true. Michael Isaac Shokrian [04:03] Yes—accurate and true. Great. I'm happy to be here. I'm glad you guys invited me on. I appreciate it. Lio [04:09] It's our pleasure. I think one of the best things about the show is that, when Seth and I set out to solve antisemitism once and for all, we never imagined we'd be sitting down and having amazing conversations with such wonderful people. I mean, really. We talk to people on the right and on the left, pro-this and anti-that, and even some nice antisemites. You meet a lot of people. Listen, if someone's willing to talk—and not just throw slogans at you—that's already a great advantage. Absolutely. So, yes, this is a rare trait, and most Jews still have that in them, so we appreciate it. That's what Jews do best. Exactly. Well, most of them. Again, there's a section that's kind of forgotten about that, but I guess even they are there to remind us of the importance of those things. I want to jump right into something that's at the heart of what you're doing and what you're writing about. I lived in New York for almost 22 years. I moved back to Israel a few years ago; Seth is still there—I left him behind. He's still in America. I visit regularly, and we're following what's happening in New York and all around the country. Given the level of hostility we're seeing now—Jews being attacked on the streets, disowned by different institutions, disavowed by old allies, and generally pushed out of a lot of cultural spaces—is belonging even the right word to chase anymore? Or are we deluding ourselves by thinking about inclusion in a system that keeps telling us we're conditionally welcome at best? Is it time to talk seriously about relocation or renegotiating the relationship, maybe even some strategic withdrawal from places that are plainly bad for Jews? Michael Isaac Shokrian [06:13] Wow. First of all, I think belonging might be the problem here. That's what the main character goes through in American Playground: he's trying to belong. Personally, I no longer think belonging should be the goal. It's going to sound clichéd, but I think it's about coexistence. It's not necessarily about belonging to a larger group or being accepted into the clique or dominant group we want to be part of. From a human standpoint, I think it's more important to be able to coexist. I don't think there's any other solution—not just when it comes to antisemitism. As humans, we seem to elbow one another a lot. We keep trying to dominate one another, keep one another out, and create conflicts that are human-made rather than organic. When I was a kid, there used to be a bumper sticker on every hippie's car that said “Coexist,” with different religious and cultural symbols spelling out the word. I remember that. I think that's really what it is. I wouldn't call myself an expert on Israel, but that region has to start adopting a coexistence mentality. I don't think they're there yet, and that's why we have all this constant retaliation and back-and-forth going back seventy years. Lio [08:14] So, you know, coexistence is a nice idea in principle, but some may interpret it as, you know, even if you're a Jew living in a Muslim country 150 years ago, they could coexist. You pay the jizya, the tax, and, you know, coexist away. But I think it's something more insidious that's kind of lurking. Seth [08:42] Let me also say: there's this concept in architecture. I live in Central Jersey, in an area where there used to be a lot of orchards. Somebody would come in, buy up an orchard, and put as many houses there as possible, with no thought to the surroundings. There's a concept in architecture called passive solar. For example, if the sun rises over here and the wind blows from over there, you arrange your house to take advantage of those conditions. You don't put the garage facing the sun so that you never get sunlight into the house. Instead of putting the back of the house toward the hill, you put the front of the house toward the wind. You can use the surroundings. Just because it's a great place to put a house, you still have to look at what's around you. We also have this thing in Florida, and at the Jersey Shore, where every year they're dredging because the sea takes away the beach. But houses were built in a certain area, so every year they pump the beach back. Even if a storm comes and knocks everything away, people still build in the same place. So there's this question: are you fighting nature, or is it better to build where nature isn't trying to erode the beach every year? Can you build in a way that lets you enjoy the sun without losing all the sunlight or being beaten by the wind in winter? You can arrange yourself within nature by taking a few more of these data points into account and finding a place where you fit more naturally, more organically. Lio [08:42] What are you saying? Seth [08:42] I'm saying that the attitude of, “Everyone else is there, so I want to be there too,” or, “I should be able to be there too,” may not be enough—even if it's a hostile place. There may be other considerations, and it might not be ideal. Maybe in the long term it could be different, but right now we should also look at the natural conditions. Lio [11:06] And just before you think of an answer to this architectural conundrum, I think just to ground it, we're not necessarily talking about, you know, physical relocation. I'm not saying all Jews should leave everything and come to Israel. No, not necessarily. But maybe changing something about our mindset. Maybe there's something we're not doing right. Like, you know, we're sort of like trying too hard in one way. Seth [11:36] Into the system naturally. Not just, “I'm going to buy out this piece of land. I'm putting my house here. Screw everyone.” Michael Isaac Shokrian [11:44] That's interesting. See, I think that if left to their own devices, I haven't experienced Jews trying desperately to belong anywhere. I see them getting pushed, you know, and, you know, maybe treated differently. But I think that the Jewish culture that I grew up with seemed to be very proud of who they are and where they come from and what they believe in. And most of the time, they just want to be left alone. I don't know that they're always trying to belong. Lio [12:24] We all want to be left alone. But if, for thousands of years, we haven't been left alone, maybe the question is: what does everyone want from us? Maybe they want something. Maybe we're not building the house the right way. Maybe there's something about what we're presenting or how we're presenting it. Among ourselves—and I'm sure this is familiar if your family is Iranian—people can be stern and tough on the one hand, yet also show unbelievable warmth, care, and loyalty. I have several very close Iranian friends. I'm sure everybody would love some of that if they experienced it. When Jews put everything else aside and sit around a Shabbat table, or when a storm gathers around them and they set their differences aside and come together, something amazing happens. There's a feeling you can't get anywhere else. So maybe we're not— Michael Isaac Shokrian [13:36] You're asking, are we doing something wrong? Lio [13:40] Maybe—on all levels. I'm open to all kinds of approaches. Seth and I have been doing this for the last decade, and we're seeing futile efforts on every front. Quantitatively, we're a tiny number—just 0.2 percent of the world's population—so we can't be at war with everyone all the time. We can be at war with some people in some places. Israel, for example, may have to maintain a certain state of war or balance in order to exist, but we can talk about that later. On the whole, we Jews can't be at war with the entire world. We have to figure out what's going on and use our heads and hearts a little better to understand what's not working, because we're very smart people. Seth [14:28] You can't say that a kid—an infant—is walking wrong. He just hasn't learned yet. I don't think we're looking at everyone and saying, “You're all doing it wrong,” because no one educated us about how to do it right. But we can't remain ignorant of the right way, because we don't have that luxury anymore. After everything we've seen, after the Second World War, and with the way the world is moving now, we have to take responsibility for the situation we're in and learn quickly. What does the world expect of us? Lio [15:10] What's your experience, Michael? You look like a great guy. You don't strike me as a conniving businessman or a shark landlord somewhere. You're an intellectual, a thinker, an attorney, and a writer. I'm sure you could spend— Seth [15:34] Is that Dr. John on the wall behind you? Michael Isaac Shokrian [15:36] Yes, Dr. John, right there. I went to law school in New Orleans, and I went to Jazz Fest every year, so that was one of the paintings that I picked up. Lio [15:44] There you go. We could sit and trade stories, but I'm sure that when you're walking down the street nowadays, you're not thinking, “I'm a great conversationalist.” You're thinking, “Will someone identify me as a Jew? Is that going to be a problem?” People have that fear. That's strange for the twenty-first century. Michael Isaac Shokrian [16:09] Yes, I understand what you're saying. First of all, I was in Iran for the first six years of my life, after we moved from Hamburg back to Tehran. Lio [16:09] When was that? What years? Michael Isaac Shokrian [16:09] I think we moved back to Tehran in 1965, and we left in 1971. Lio [16:09] Oh, so it was before the revolution. Michael Isaac Shokrian [16:09] Yes—long before the revolution, and long before there was even an issue. It was a different Iran altogether. My family didn't feel like outsiders or as though they were unwelcome. Iranian Jews have been in Persia for 3,000 years or longer. Seth [17:07] It's the destruction of the Second Temple. Michael Isaac Shokrian [17:10] Yes, and they've never not been there. They're woven into the fabric of Persian culture, and they felt that way. For the most part, I don't think they felt like second-class citizens before the revolution. Of course, there was always religious tension, as there has been forever, but there wasn't a dominant-subservient relationship between Jews and Muslims, Zoroastrians, Bahá'ís, or the other cultures that coexisted in Tehran, where I grew up. I didn't feel anything tense. Of course, I was six years old, in first grade or the early part of second grade, so I wouldn't have had much reason to feel those things anyway. My parents didn't feel that way, and we never discussed it as a problem. We celebrated Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Passover, and the other holidays openly, as did the people around us in Tehran. Before the religious revolution, I didn't notice that we were different or had a history of persecution. When I came to America, I also didn't feel like an outsider as a Jew. Did you come to L.A.? Yes. We moved to a community where there were a lot of Jews in my school. I did feel like an outsider for other reasons when I first came to Los Angeles at the age of seven. Because I already felt different, I tried to hide the fact that I was Jewish; I didn't want to be different on any level. I went out of my way to hide anything that might make me feel different. But antisemitism in those days? No. I didn't feel antisemitism until I got to college. I went to UCLA, and—as it should be—a university is full of diverse and experimental ideas. It's a melting pot of different things happening, with ideas being turned over, scrutinized, and tried on to see whether they fit. That's the beauty of a university. It was the first time I heard people talk about Jews in that way. The student body was diverse, with people from many places, whereas before that I'd always lived within my own community. At UCLA, I first experienced that diversity of thought and background. I knew antisemitism existed, and I knew how to deal with it: I didn't engage in that kind of talk. Seth [20:39] I thought you were going to say punch him in the nose. Michael Isaac Shokrian [20:41] I thought so too, but no—it never happened like that. The first time I personally experienced what you would call antisemitism was in Mexico. I was traveling with my girlfriend and some other Americans. We met a nice American guy with blond hair and a mustache, and we spent a few days together. We went to bars in different parts of Mexico, talked a lot, and bonded. One day, while we were hiking and talking about world politics and general things, he said something like, “At least I like you, Michael. At least you're not a Jew.” It came out of nowhere. For the first time, I had to think, “What am I going to say to this guy?” I liked him; he was a nice guy. But he'd said something so ridiculous and so in my face that I didn't know how to react. I shrugged it off, and we finished the hike. Later, I told my girlfriend what he'd said and asked how I was supposed to deal with it, because we were meant to see him again. It was a very uncomfortable and very new feeling. It reminded me that antisemitism really exists. It isn't just a concept. Lio [22:20] What did you do? Did you confront him? Ever? Michael Isaac Shokrian [22:24] No. You know what happened? He mysteriously fell off a cliff. No—of course, we don't condone violence. Without talking to me first, my girlfriend approached him and said, “That was really stupid, because he's Jewish.” We went out to dinner that night, and he was very apologetic. But he apologized because he'd said something at the wrong time to the wrong person. He couldn't possibly have apologized for the belief itself; he apologized for saying it to me because he hadn't known I was Jewish. You know what I'm saying? Lio [23:08] He didn't change his opinion about Jews. Michael Isaac Shokrian [23:10] No, not at all. I heard his apology, and in the bigger picture I felt that this guy had no bearing on my life. I was on an adventure, so whatever—I didn't care what he said. I accepted his apology, and we moved on. From that day forward, however, I saw him differently. I didn't think of him as someone I should fear or someone who was going to dominate me because I was a Jew and he was a non-Jew. I simply thought of him as ignorant. I thought less of him. Lio [23:10] An outlier, right? Lio [23:56] You were like, okay, there's also that. Michael Isaac Shokrian [23:59] Not necessarily an outlier—just somebody you lose a little respect for. You think, “Okay, this guy…” You put him in a box. He's part of the dummies. Lio [24:10] I get it, but I imagine you were also confident enough to allow yourself to feel this way because it was the eighties or something. It was a time when Jews were still the golden children of American society. It was like, okay, a few people don't like Jews—fine, whatever. I know a guy who doesn't like the Irish; I know a guy who doesn't like Black people, and okay— Michael Isaac Shokrian [24:35] Yes. Now I understand what you're saying. In that regard, he was an outlier. He was not the majority, and I didn't have to fear him. Lio [24:45] Or worry. Exactly. But now we're in a different place, and it hasn't been that long since your encounter. It hasn't even been 100 years since World War II, meaning there are still people alive among us who remember what happened. And here we are seeing scenes that, if you changed the clothes and made the footage black-and-white, you might ask, “Where was that? Poland? Germany?” It's strange, and somehow we're accepting it. Seth [25:25] I see videos now where a guy dressed in rainbow colors goes to a Pride parade and asks, “Do you know what happens if you're gay in Gaza? In Israel, you're accepted.” By the end, people still say, “Nevertheless, they're committing genocide. I don't care; I stand with this.” We're in a time when people don't seem to understand basic facts about life. Go spend a day in Tel Aviv. You'll see that Jews are nice people. Come hang out with us—we sing songs; we welcome you. Then look at all the conflicts in the world. Isn't it strange that the media is focused on one conflict while there are no campus protests about everything else? There's another issue: the facts don't seem to matter. An emotion toward Jews has taken over, and it's blind to facts. It feels like a wave—a tidal wave—coming. Michael Isaac Shokrian [26:53] Okay. Here's what I mean. I follow the news, campus debates, and protests. I think both sides conflate Judaism with the current State of Israel. I don't. I make a distinction. I'm a Jew, but I'm not Israeli, and I don't have a strong emotional connection to the State of Israel. I have an emotional connection to Iran because I spent my formative years there, and my parents, grandparents, and my wife's family are from there. We're Iranian Jews: we're Iranian, and we're Jewish. I also feel a connection to America because I grew up, was educated, work, and raised my children here. That gives me the opportunity to feel Jewish and to understand the reason Israel was created and its purpose, while also seeing it as a political entity on par with other political entities. I'm American, and I don't necessarily like what my government—this government—is doing right now. I can see, articulate, and discuss the distinction. We should be able to avoid conflating antisemitism and Judaism with fair criticism of Israel as a country and political entity. Seth [28:59] And you're right. Just to save a little time in our conversation: right now they're saying it's about Israel, but it doesn't really matter. It could be that Jews are capitalists. It could be that they're communists. It could be that Jesus was a Jew. It could be that they killed Jesus. It doesn't matter what the reason is. So let's save some time and not get into the politics, because I could bring out facts about the conduct of the United Nations and who's donating more to U.S. politicians—Qatar, AIPAC, and so on. Let's not do that. It's a waste of all our time. Michael Isaac Shokrian [29:34] No. I agree with you. I'm just saying that there's a debate to be had. There's a debate to be had about that. And I do mean it. I say on both sides of it, there is a conflation that shouldn't be. And you're right. They use whatever Israel is doing now as an excuse to perpetuate their antisemitism, which pre-existed. Seth [29:57] But there was no Israel during World War II. The point is that the stated reason doesn't really matter, because we can look at other countries doing terrible things to their people. For example, in Syria, 300,000 people died and four million were displaced, and I didn't see protests on college campuses. So we don't necessarily want to get into the reason for the current antisemitism. It's enough to say that in every generation there will be a new excuse. We need to understand the role of the Jews from generation to generation—whether the accusation is communism, capitalism, Israel, or whatever comes next. There's something about the Jews that the world has a problem with, some claim against them. Michael Isaac Shokrian [30:52] Yeah. Seth [30:53] And that's what Lio and I are trying to clarify with people through these conversations: what is it about Jews and antisemitism? Lio [31:07] Anti-Jewishness. It's easier to—anti-Jewishness. Michael Isaac Shokrian [31:11] Yeah. That's a good clarification, actually. Lio [31:13] Yes, because “Semitism” sounds like an ideology. There's no ideology. There's a Jew, and I have a feeling against the Jew. Seth [31:19] If there were no hatred against Jews, the Jewish people would have assimilated and been long gone. This hatred against the Jews has been a fence around the Jewish people. So the question is: is it possible to do our good work and bring forth the goal of the brotherhood of man proactively, or do we constantly need the nations of the world to create this fence around us and push us toward who we are? Michael Isaac Shokrian [31:53] I guess that's the question. It's such an interesting concept, and I'd never considered it before. What you're saying, if I understand it, is that singling out the Jews has kept them going for so long. If they hadn't been singled out, they probably would have assimilated and disappeared by now. Seth [31:53] Absolutely. Seth [32:16] And even more: it's a force of nature. It's not just an accident like that. Sorry—please, I didn't mean to cut you off. Michael, you were opening up about it, and I just got excited. Michael Isaac Shokrian [32:33] I'm just saying that I had never considered the idea that the hatred or the animosity that the world seems to have had for Judaism or for the Jews for thousands of years is the very thing that has kept them vibrant and alive for millennia. And that's a very interesting concept because I never would have considered that, hey, you know what? If you guys didn't hate the Jews so much, you probably wouldn't have them. And so it's the fact that you keep hating them, that they continue to exist and be a thorn in your side. Lio [33:16] People can't control their emotions in the same way they can entertain ideas—and even entertaining ideas is becoming difficult. We're feeling creatures. The moment you're overcome by emotion, that's it: I like it; I hate it; I love it; this is tasty; this isn't. Later, if you're that kind of person, you can sit down and analyze what happened. But most people operate on the feeling itself: this is hard, so I can't do it; or this is hard, so I have to do it. It's a reaction. Now that we understand this hatred has kept Jews alive, the question is: why? Or rather, to what end? What could be the purpose of this group? I'm returning to the idea you raised at the beginning: coexistence. When creatures coexist symbiotically, everyone brings something to the relationship; otherwise, it's parasitic. We imagine there must be a symbiotic, harmonious relationship, because that's what nature does everywhere, and it generally works. Nations and individuals arrange themselves that way. So here's the tough question: considering all the good Jews have already brought to the world—morals, ethics, law, philosophy, education, and ideas—what is still missing? Seth [35:03] Love your neighbor as yourself. Lio [35:05] “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation.” Yes, and technology and all kinds of things. I mean, there's a smart Jew at every intersection; it doesn't matter where you go. That's just a fact. Again, we've done our research where we can. History has used Jews to make a point throughout human development. They're a great group of people. Considering all of that, you'd imagine that at some point the world would say, “Okay, that's it. You've given everything you've got, all that we need. Let's just be friends. Let's coexist.” And yet here we are: not only are we not coexisting, but people hate us even more. Even after this little incident on October 7, which should have engendered some degree of compassion, it actually gave license to more antisemites—people you thought were your friends—and allowed more anti-Jewish sentiment to erupt to the surface. Suddenly it was as if they had just been waiting for permission: “Oh, it's okay to hate Jews now. Great. Let's go find our Jewish friend and tell them what we really think about them.” We've had people on the show tell us this from Europe and all kinds of places. So it begs the question: what's going on? I'm bringing it back to us because I don't believe others can control what they're doing. I want to focus on myself first and foremost. What are we not doing? What are we not giving? What is something that exists among Jews—something that may be intuitive to us, something that already happens between us at certain times—that the world would love to have but doesn't? Maybe that's what they want from us. Michael Isaac Shokrian [36:57] Hearing both of you, it's very interesting. First of all, given how large the world is and how long human history is, I'm going to assume there are probably other groups that have been persecuted that we know nothing about, for the exact same non-reasons—meaning, almost randomly. But I want to get back to this idea that, if the Jews weren't hated so much, they might not exist. I compare it to a joke I heard from Sarah Silverman. She said she found out that squirrels don't know where they've buried 90 percent of their walnuts, and that's why we have walnut trees. It's a phenomenon of nature that exists for natural, organic reasons; you couldn't have designed it that way. It just is that way. Squirrels like walnuts. They take walnuts, bury them for later, and forget where they buried them. Because of that, walnut trees exist. Maybe that's what we are. Maybe we're just a freak of nature. You can't pretend hatred isn't human nature. It is. Humans hate; it's part of their DNA. If you have to hate, then, grammatically, you need a direct object for that sentence. They have to hate something, and they've picked Jews. I don't know why. We can go back thousands of years. But because they've hated Jews, the Jews have continued to thrive and exist within a very hot, passionate circle fenced in by that hate. Because they've been able to continue their existence in that highly passionate way, they've managed to create and contribute to humanity in amazing ways. Honestly, this is the first time I've ever thought about it this way. Maybe that's just how it is. Maybe the hatred is supposed to be, and we're supposed to deal with it. Part of how we deal with it is to continue to exist and continue contributing in the most positive ways to our race—to humanity. Seth [40:06] We try to see these things as natural processes or cycles, as though all humanity were one body and every culture served a function within it. One group might be the gallbladder—not that we're pointing at anyone and saying, “You're the gallbladder”—but each group serves a purpose in the human organism, and the functions are complementary. There's no value in erasing anyone, even our cousins. If someone is trying to kill you, you may have to stop them, but eradicating a people won't achieve anything good. A body contains different systems: some bring things in, while others transport things out. We've spent a lot of time thinking about the role of the Jews. Through life's tribulations, people become smarter, and this tiny group went through a pressure cooker: the Egyptian, Roman, Greek, and Persian empires, including the Purim story; King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella in Spain; and all the other major powers in history. Whenever something big and powerful happens in human history, a parallel Jewish story appears alongside it. Greek civilization had the Hanukkah story. Roman civilization and the Colosseum had the destruction of the Second Temple. The pharaohs and pyramids had the Jews. This small group advanced at an accelerated pace. Leaving the Torah and its meaning aside for one moment—if we can—the Jews are like a microcosm of humanity. What is humanity's goal? Is it to work in a factory or sit in a cubicle all day, or is there some sublime purpose? This group should be the pioneers of that purpose. Michael Isaac Shokrian [42:48] To use some of the vernacular currently in the ether, I would say this group is highly enriched uranium that lights up the world. Because of the intensity within which it exists, and the intense emotions constantly swirling around it, it has this extra-enriched power to continue existing and to exist at an exponentially higher level—where we want to be educated, create, invent, and discover. We're going to live at ten times the level at which they want us not to live. Seth [43:50] Where can we go with it? What does that mean? Just more technology, more medicine, more of what? What does the world need? What do people need? What do we need to be focusing on? Lio [44:00] Hold on. I'll accelerate that also because of time. Okay. The world, you know, we're not saying that we're not going to see, you know, additional advancements here and there. AI is going to take over this and that. But even if you accelerate that time frame, let's say everything goes according to plan. Okay, let's say a human ego doesn't destroy the world before that. Let's say, okay, everything goes according to plan and you have artificial general intelligence or at least versions of that in different key areas in life. You can work less, you can do less. What is the purpose of humanity? Where is it going? Because it's going there very fast. We're not talking about 100 or 200 years from now. We're not talking about— Seth [44:43] Michael didn't realize he was going to come on the show to solve the biggest problem in the universe. He thought he'd talk about his book and his childhood. And we're saying, “Michael, why are we alive?” Lio [44:54] That's what it is. There's no other way around it. We have to talk about it because what we've found isn't something Seth and I invented on our own. We've searched through the words of Jewish sages. For millennia, these people—not merely smart but truly wise, and having attained something of nature's deeper layers—have written about a very specific purpose for the Jewish people and for humanity: a certain upliftment. The language may sound biblical, but when you scrape away the outer layer, you're left with something very pure that speaks about a sublime purpose for humanity. We can't separate the reason for hating the Jews from the purpose of the Jews, the meaning of life, humanity, and our place in the world. It's all one bundle. Michael Isaac Shokrian [45:58] I have two different, almost opposite feelings about that. One is about your suggestion of putting aside the ego that might destroy humanity. I'm not sure we can put it aside. It's possible that we were meant to exist and also to cause our own demise and extinction. That could be the process we're going through now. Maybe we've been fortunate enough to exist in a pre-extinction phase as it moves into an extinction phase. But I also think about a biology class I took at UCLA, where we had to read The Selfish Gene. That book stayed with me; I still think about it more than forty years later. We're driven by the selfish gene. Its purpose is to recreate itself constantly, by any means necessary. It has no morals, ethics, or laws; it simply wants to keep reproducing itself. The hatred that propels Jews toward greatness—and toward creating things that help humanity move forward—may be part of that same concept: the selfish gene doing everything it can to reproduce itself as efficiently as possible. I'm not a scientist, but I remember the concepts as very real: organisms existing for the pure and exclusive purpose of continuing to exist. Lio [48:11] We're with you 100 percent. In fact, Jewish sages talk about these degrees in nature: still, vegetative, animate, and speaking—the degree that refers to people—and even a higher, godly degree. I've read this book, and I've read all the theories of the atheists. For a brief moment, it's reassuring to think, “You know what? There's nothing. It's just self-replication, the transfer of information, and goodbye.” That would have been great. But why go through the trouble of having consciousness? Why be a conscious participant in this? We could have continued the species like monkeys, without all the complexity of consciousness—even though we can't fully explain consciousness or the brain. Looking at it from the outside, we could have continued the species without all this trouble. Why go through it unless there's a mandate, a prerequisite to be a participant? It's almost like—and again, I'm not even saying “God” or “higher intelligence”—but if nature allowed this to happen, everything in nature seems to have a purpose. I know it's a big leap, and I'm taking you along because you have an imagination. Seth [49:43] It's also a big leap because everything we see in nature looks like everything is just trying to survive and do its own thing. Where's the evidence that there is some sublime, godly? Lio [49:56] That evidence isn't clearly visible, for all sorts of reasons. We're not going to get into free will and all of that. But there are too many examples of very clear endpoints to things. Yes, everything continues; one thing goes into something else. But evolution isn't just a big mush, like a soufflé that keeps rising. There's an orange; there's a cat; there are all these end products, so to speak. They can't all be explained by saying, “After billions of years, statistically, you get a cat.” Even if you're a great mathematician, that's hard to buy. It's also hard to imagine that someone would create a cat—that's a different story. But there's a clear sense that things have a beginning and an end. Only someone who sees something halfway finished, without knowing the beginning or the end, will say, “It's all chaos.” But it isn't all chaos. If you make something, someone thought about it and made it. I'm not smarter than nature. Nature probably also looked at this and said, “We made this for a reason.” So we're asking you, and everyone listening, to think about the reason. I totally agree with you: it has to do with the ego. It was a diversion, and you caught on to it. It has everything to do with the human ego. That's what we need to focus on, because it's messing things up for everyone all the time. So connect the ego and the Jews for me. Tie a nice little bow around this. You can do it. Michael Isaac Shokrian [51:47] Wow. I could say that the Jews exist because of their ego. I could say that the Jews are persecuted because of the egos of others. That's really what it is, isn't it? At the end of it—or at the start of it—ego pushes everybody to do what they do. We may be intellectual enough to say, “This is the selfish gene doing what it's supposed to do, whether you like it or not.” But, as you say, we have consciousness, and consciousness by itself implies ego. Therefore, it's ego that makes people hate the Jews. Why? Because they feel threatened by it, or because they want to dominate something that looks as if it could be dominated. On the other side, Jews are like any other humans. If they feel threatened or persecuted, their ego will force them to rise up, circle the wagons, and create their own universe where they thrive. They show the haters what they got wrong, or that they're not worthy of this hatred, or whatever it may be. Ego is a driver, and sometimes it drives you right into a ditch. But it is a driver. Maybe that's just a human version of the selfish gene at play. I can see what you're saying, and I think you're right: ego isn't something you're going to ignore. It's there, constantly at work. Lio [53:39] We had Professor David Patterson on the show, and he said that the Jew—or, let's say, the corrected form of the Jew—threatens the ego in everyone. In the right form, the Jew demonstrates the capacity to care about, be aware of, think about, feel, and empathize with another person. That can disturb people who are asleep; it disturbs their sleep. It doesn't allow them to remain egoistic beasts whose only thought is, “I want to eat, so I'll eat.” Seth [54:28] Let's talk about a degree before that, though. Let's say that it's true that the ego is always looking to be satisfied. That's it. Michael Isaac Shokrian [54:38] Yeah. Seth [54:41] Let's presume—and it seems from the evidence—that people, as egoists, have a huge claim against Jews. We're all egoists. It seems that, as Jews, we should first present the ego with a better way of life. If people knew that loving each other would make life better, then—I don't know—we have to sell this love, connection, unity, and brotherhood as a better option than the alternative. Through advertising, you can convince someone to eat poison, right? They sell tons of candy made with Yellow No. 5, corn syrup, and whatever else, and they sell millions and millions of dollars' worth. People can be convinced of anything. The ego can be convinced of anything if it thinks there will be fulfillment. I think our job as Jews—and I don't know how this conversation, Lio, turned into us trying to rally Michael to get this job done for us, but that's where it went—is to work one heart at a time. If everyone is an egoist and everyone is looking to survive, what's the best possible way for all of us to survive together? It's for all of us to take care of each other symbiotically. And who better than the Jews to give an example of that? Michael Isaac Shokrian [56:08] My conclusion? Well, I think it would be great if that could happen. Seth [56:08] Can we get it done by next week? Michael Isaac Shokrian [56:08] One of the things we discussed today is that I believe hatred is part of our nature. I don't see us, as a human race, eradicating hatred, just as we're not going to eradicate greed. These are human qualities you can't regulate out of existence. You can try to subdue them, but that's the constant challenge, isn't it? It's the constant challenge of figuring out how we're better than beasts, how we're better than the monkeys you were talking about, because they also have raw hatred. We're in a constant state of trying to civilize ourselves and somehow regulate, or civilize, that hatred out of us. It doesn't always work. I also want to say something about ego, in connection with what Seth was saying. Right or wrong, Jews are always calling themselves the chosen people, which is a little bit of ego. God said it, not us. But I can see—I'd never thought about this before—how people might feel threatened by that. It might piss some people off. Maybe we don't always say it. We don't always say, “We're the chosen people.” We're just chosen to take out the trash. Seth [57:54] And that's something else. Lio [57:56] Exactly. That's what we always say. Chosen for what? Nobody's getting better rates at the bank here. There's something else, and obviously we're not going to get to all of it. I just want to say on what you said on eradicating these qualities, you're 100 percent right as well. And it's nice how it connects to what we talked about at the very beginning. But everything that exists now has a part to play in what comes next. Whatever came and went, it's fine. It came and went. But if it exists right now, at this point in time, it has a role to play. And even your hate, not yours, but everyone listening, even your hate, your vengeance, your pride, they can all be used differently. And that's the secret to being human. You're not like an animal. You're not limited to a one-track mode of action, right? You can hate the part in you that wants only for itself. If we all banded together against that ego, use that hate. Yeah, hate that. Don't hate the Jews. Hate that. If you have feelings for Jews, great. What we always say, encourage the Jews to lead the world to correction. Don't try to eradicate them because you can't. The system will not let you. I think the Nazis were probably the best people to do it, and even they failed. So let's learn from our mistakes and not try to eradicate Jews. Try to work together. Seth [59:28] It's a waste of time. Lio [59:29] It's a waste of time. Come on, world. Seth [59:31] Let's try and not eradicate the Jews. Lio [59:34] Network science explains it, by the way, because Jews are hubs in the system, and the system needs hubs. That's only in the first season, by the way. I'm going to put a quote in the chat for you to read. We invite all our guests to read something at the end from our sources, from the sages. This one is from Baal HaSulam, Yehuda Ashlag. I don't know whether you've heard of him. He was a preeminent Kabbalist of the twentieth century. The accessible version of the Book of Zohar that people can read exists because of him. He took the Aramaic and made it accessible. He was a phenomenal thinker, and he describes this whole picture in a unique way. I'll ask you to read it, if you don't mind, before we close. But before you do, could you take a minute and address all the Jews? All the Jews are listening to this podcast—it's called TheJewFunction. From your heart, and from what we discussed today, what would you tell them? What would you wish them? Michael Isaac Shokrian [59:34] Buy my book. Lio [59:34] Besides buying Michael's book, which we'll link in the description, and visiting his literary portal, The Thieving Magpie. Michael Isaac Shokrian [01:01:02] What would I tell all the Jews? Okay. This is very sincere, because this is what I feel as a Jew: you are loved, even though you don't always see it. You are in the right place. You are your own sanctuary and your own savior. Never assume you need an external force to come and save you, because you are that yourself. You have to truly know that, and you have to walk the earth with that in your heart. Lio [01:02:07] Wow. That was one of the nicest addresses we've had here on TheJewFunction. I felt your heart. Michael Isaac Shokrian [01:02:15] Thank you. Michael Isaac Shokrian [01:02:16] I feel it. I mean, that's really what I mean. I feel that every day. Lio [01:02:23] From your mouth to the ear of every Jew. Inshallah. Inshallah, exactly. MashaAllah. That's Turkish. I put the quote in the chat. Obviously, it was written by a Kabbalist, so it uses words like “Creator” and “creation.” When we hear those words, even if we're not religious, let's think of nature—the force of love and bestowal—because that's what he talks about everywhere else. Please give it a read, and we'll conclude with that. Michael Isaac Shokrian [01:02:57] Okay. “The Creator's desired goal for the creation He had created is to bestow upon His creatures, so they would know His truthfulness and greatness and receive all the delight and pleasure He had prepared for them. Thus, you clearly find that this purpose does not apply to the still and the great spheres, such as the earth, the moon, or the sun, however luminous they may be, and not to the vegetative or the animate, for they lack the sensation of others, even from among their own species. Therefore, how can the sensation of the godly and His bestowal apply to them? Humankind alone, having been prepared with the sensation of others of the same species who are similar to them, after working in Torah and commandments, when they invert their will to receive to a desire to bestow and achieve equivalence of form with their Maker, they receive all the degrees that have been prepared for them in the upper worlds. By this, they become qualified to receive the purpose of the thought of creation.” Wow. That was a high text. Lio [01:04:29] I felt it was fitting. Michael, this is not goodbye; it's farewell. And yes, we are eternally bound by— Seth [01:04:42] It's not lost on us that we surprised you today. We didn't intend it. Lio [01:04:47] No, no—we intended it, but in a good way. I hope you did. Michael Isaac Shokrian [01:04:52] In a good way. Lio [01:04:54] Great. We hope others will be equally surprised. Thank you so much for your time and for your open-heartedness. It was felt. I think more people need to hear these conversations and realize that this is possible. It is possible. If you feel this way, spread it. Let others hear it as well, because it will open something in you. We need more open hearts and minds out there, especially today. Thank you so much. We are TheJewFunction. We'll see you here next time. Michael Isaac Shokrian [01:05:30] Thank you very much. Good seeing you guys. [To be continued.]