w/ Jeff Weiss "fighting back"

TheJewFunction Podcast: Episode 118

Host: Lio

Host: Seth

Guest: Jeff Weiss

Lio: And we're live. No fanfare. We made some changes and we're just starting our talk. I'm Lio. This is TheJewFunction, Episode 118. I'm here with Seth and a very dear guest, Jeff Weiss. Jeffrey... Jeff or Jeffrey? Which is it? Jeff?

Jeff: Jeffrey. So it does... I feel compelled to put my actual full name on things like that, but I go by Jeff.

Lio: It's because of your mom, probably.

Jeff: It is indeed.

Lio: That was an educated guess. So we're very happy to have Jeff on TheJewFunction. He's a co-author of Fighting Back, a fascinating story about the birth of the Israeli Air Force in 1948, the nascent state of Israel. So he'll tell us a little bit about that. And he's also behind a really interesting project, which I think anyone who's been to Israel in the past two years has seen it, but maybe they don't know that you have a hand in it. So we'll hear about that as well.

As usual, here on TheJewFunction, for those of you who stumbled here by chance, the algorithm just popped you here because God knows what, we are trying to solve the problem of antisemitism. We're not interested so much in the symptoms because there's plenty of podcasts talking about that. We're talking about the roots of the problem and the solution to it. And it's not based on our own ideas. It's based on ideas that have been in the works, have been talked about by Jewish sages for the past 2,000 years at least. And they've been confirmed by historic patterns and findings from network science. And we are, I believe, Seth, the only podcast that's actually discussing these things.

Seth: If you're curious to hear more about saying it, I'm waiting for somebody to say, "No, we're also doing that, too."

Lio: But I have... You know. So if you're interested in listening to the full thesis and how it unfolds over time, the entire chronology of the Jewish people, please check out the first 22 episodes, or Season One, of TheJewFunction podcast. It was just Seth and I, and we talk about it. And if you just love to meet interesting people like we do, then just stick around and we'll hear from Jeff. So Jeff, welcome to TheJewFunction.

Jeff: Thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to our conversation.

Lio: Excellent. So let's start with the book. Actually, I want to start with the book because I actually haven't read it. Obviously, from the time I heard about the book and now there wasn't enough time to get it and read it. But it's intriguing. So tell us a little bit about the book. It's called Fighting Back, right? And while you speak, maybe I'll share a picture of it so people can see. We also put a link to the book website. So I might share that. But tell us about the book and what's your connection to it? I mean, you don't just pick a topic out of thin air, but there's got to be something there. So tell us a little bit.

Jeff: Sure. The book is about an American Jew named Stan Andrews, who in 1948 came to Israel to join the newly formed country's Air Force to become one of its very first fighter pilots. Israel was, as you guys well know, proclaimed—its independence was proclaimed—on May 14th, 1948. And Israel was at war within a few hours of that proclamation. The British had been in charge of the territory right up until the Declaration of Independence. And so in the years prior to the declaration, Israel had been unable—the Jewish community had been unable—to build a modern military, Navy, Air Force, an armored corps, and things of that sort.

So Israel found itself in a situation where it needed to simultaneously fight a multi-front war and actually build its army, and in particular its Air Force, in the midst of that. And so with respect to pilots in particular, the country looked outside for men like Stan who had experience flying combat aircraft. So that's what led him to come.

And in terms of how I got to the story, a number of years ago, I wrote a book called I Am My Brother's Keeper about the thousand or so members of something called Machal, volunteers from outside of the land who came from the U.S. and from Canada to fight in the War of Independence. And in the course of that research, I came across Stan's story and found it so compelling that I resolved to go back after the completion of the first book and do one devoted just to him and to his unique story.

Lio: Do you have a question? Because I'm curious to know, so what led you to write the first book? I mean, are you like a history buff? What's the... again, what's the fascination?

Jeff: The first book, basically, I was in Israel in the 1980s. I did my last year of college here, and then my first year of law school. I actually did that at Bar Ilan. I'm in the regular program for Israeli students and made it through my classes, completed that year, and then decided to finish law school in the States. But I always worried that I would lose my Hebrew because I never considered myself a particularly talented language student. So basically I decided to read books in Hebrew to try to maintain the language for myself and was always drawn to military history. So I read mostly in that space and read a book by a guy named Danny Shapira, who became ultimately Israel's chief test pilot in the 1960s. He was the first Western pilot to fly the MiG-21 that was brought to Israel by an Iraqi defector in 1966, I believe.

In that book, Shapira talks about these foreign volunteers who really dominated the Air Force in '48, '49, '50. In fact, English was the official language of radio communication until 1950. And I read that book in 1995. It was the year that books were coming out to mark the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II. And I felt like one of those cartoon characters with the light bulb going off above the head. It occurred to me that three years from then would be Israel's 50th anniversary, 1998. And I thought, you know what, this story seems like it could be really fascinating. I've never heard of it before. And I thought I really knew pretty much all there was to know about Israel's history. So it occurred to me that this would be exactly the right time to write that story, to investigate it and to write it if in fact it turned out to be as compelling as I thought it might be. And it all played out very nicely. And the book came out shortly before May 14th, 1998.

Seth: If I could get inside it, what are the qualities of these guys who came to Israel? Who were they? What did they share in common that they would leave their countries and fight for this country that didn't even exist yet?

Lio: Which kind of mirrors a little bit of what was happening in this war. It felt like also people were just leaving wherever they were doing, just dropping everything and rushing here. So, yeah, what are the characteristics of that person that does this?

Jeff: I think looking back to 1948, you had nearly all of them—not all, but nearly all of them—were World War II veterans. So they had training, they had combat experience. So they had something to contribute. I think they felt basically a strong need to do something. There was a genuine threat of a second Holocaust only three years after the end of World War II. There was a real fear that the state might be...

Seth: Can you explain that? I'm sorry? That's not common knowledge. Can you explain what you mean when you say that?

Jeff: Sure. I mean, when David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the founding of the state in May of 1948, Israel was immediately invaded by Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria. And so there was every possibility that the state would be wiped off the map. That the residents, the 600,000 or so Jews lived in Israel at the time, would be annihilated, would be murdered. And so for people like Stan, this was something that they felt like they could not simply stand by and watch.

And look, there were other elements as well for a lot of these folks. I think some of them missed the adventure that they had experienced during the Second World War and saw in this another "good war" where they could make a contribution and have kind of a return to perhaps their glory days. Human beings are complicated individuals. There are multiple motivations for folks, sometimes multiple motivations residing within the body of a single individual. But I think for the most part, there was tremendous sympathy for the plight of the Jewish community in Palestine, as it was known prior to May 14th, and wanting to do everything in their power to make sure that Israel came into being and that the population here was not decimated.

Seth: How do all these people get contacted and then how do they get there and how does this happen quickly?

Jeff: It was a combination of things. Some pilots sought out the opportunity to volunteer, sought out people who might know someone who knew somebody who could put them in touch with Israel, with Jewish authorities who were recruiting. Others were themselves recruited, either by word of mouth—"Hey there's a pilot here and he might be someone who would be interested in flying," that kind of thing.

In Stan's case, he sought out the opportunity. It was something that he decided that he wanted to do. And he actually started by contacting the screenwriter, Ben Hecht, who had been very active in support of illegal immigration to Mandatory Palestine and was a staunch Zionist. And eventually he made his way to the folks who were actually recruiting for what became the Israeli Air Force.

Lio: You know, I heard of Ezer Weizman. I mean, this is the guy that I knew of growing up as like the guy who... I never heard of Stan Andrews and all that. Why specifically his story? I'm curious also.

Jeff: I was drawn to his story primarily because he was such a unique individual. He was brilliant. He was an artist. He was a writer. He was a very accomplished bomber pilot in the Pacific during the Second World War. He had his whole life ahead of him. He was in a committed relationship. There was no need for him to go to Israel. He wasn't in any obligation to serve there. And so many of his compatriots were basically looking to make up for lost time in World War II and to resume their lives, to really start their post-war lives. And this was, of course, that Greatest Generation that endured so much through the Depression, the Second World War, and then did so many amazing things to really create such a wonderful America in the 1950s. And yet he walked away from that to basically take part in something that really mattered to him.

Lio: Did he move to Israel after the war or he just went back to America?

Jeff: He actually did not make it back after the war.

Lio: He died? He was killed during the war? In a dogfight, in one of those things?

Jeff: During a bombing raid. The plane was shot down.

Lio: Wow. I'm trying to think... we have a lot of guests who come here on the show and they debate with us the importance of the State of Israel. They're like, "Why are we trying so hard? Maybe we should go somewhere else. Maybe it's not..." Obviously, you're here, you're in Israel right now, and you're writing about people who live their lives to come here and you see a lot of examples. I mean, I don't need to ask you how you feel about the country. It's clear, I think, from what you're doing and what you're writing about.

But I'm curious to know, how would you even explain this very unique attitude people have, especially Jews, toward Israel after 2,000 years of yearning to be back in Israel? And then you find some people who are drawn here, like butterflies to light, and then others are just repelled by this place. Is there something that unites those who come here?

Jeff: I think so. I think Israel's a unique place. I think that, you know, Israelis very... I think perhaps strangely, given the amount of conflict that exists here year after year, they rank among the happiest people. This ranks among the happiest countries in the world. And I don't actually think it's an accident. I think it's because this is a place that requires a lot from the folks that live here, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of contribution. But I think in return, people get a feeling of community, a feeling of belonging, and a feeling of meaning. And I think at the end of the day, human beings thrive on meaning and purpose.

Viktor Frankl's immortal book, Man's Search for Meaning, has always been a very popular book here. It became a bestseller again in Israel after October 7th. And I think there's a real hunger for meaning here. And so, this is a land that Israelis, that Jews have sacrificed for, have longed for, for millennia. And then since 1948, basically has been in a state of war with at least one country every year since it was founded. And so I think that actually gives rise to a feeling on the part of the people who live here that this place matters. And it requires sacrifice and it's sacrifice that people are willing to provide.

And you know, after October 7th, I got to experience some of this myself, just seeing this spirit of volunteerism in the country. People going south to pick crops, gathering supplies for folks who've been evacuated from the south or from the north, helping those families in whatever way that they could. It's a remarkable place.

Seth: Jeff, can you... you said remarkable, that's kind of what I was getting at. Can you identify the quality, what it is about the people who return to this place or value this place? And specifically if you can try and do your answer in a way that's unique. Because you can say that, I don't know, Iberians, Castilians, or I don't know, Ecuadorians... everyone can long for their homeland, right? So besides just the animal instinct to defend my homeland, what else are we talking about? Because that's not specific to Jews, that you have some feeling to defend your homeland. That's specific to probably almost every animal creature. So what else are we talking about here, if you can identify something?

Jeff: Sure. I think, and in some ways, I think this is common both to 1948 and in many ways to today as well. I think in 1948, there was a feeling that there was no other home, particularly for the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were languishing in Displaced Persons camps after the end of World War II. No country wanted them. And certainly, even if they would have been allowed to, they did not want to return to their homes in Europe, where there had been so much killing and bloodshed and where their neighbors, their non-Jewish neighbors, remained hostile to the notion of them moving back.

And so I think there's always been this notion that there is no other place for Jews to confidently live in peace and security other than in Israel. And of course, there is war and there is conflict and there is terrorism. But at least there's comfort in knowing that this country has an army that's capable of defending the population. And so I think it's a bargain that people are willing to make.

I think one of the other things that makes this place unique is there's this Stoic concept memento mori—to remember that you're going to die. And that should give your life kind of appreciation and purpose and all of the rest. I think here... and people will get that tattooed on their arms, they'll buy these coins that say that so that they can remind themselves... I think here in Israel, you don't need those reminders. Life is precious. It can be snatched away. And I think that really gives people a sense of urgency about living life and living it well and appreciating it and not taking it for granted. And I think at the end of the day, those are good things.

Lio: But everything you say, again, it makes sense. It's like you've done your research. It's good. But we like to dig a little deeper because clearly, and I think that's where Seth was going with this question... you don't see, if France is going to get into war with Russia, which is very likely... not these days... I don't anticipate hordes of Frenchmen flocking from the U.S. back to France. They're like, "Oh, thank God I'm here." That's usually the notion. There'll be a few exceptions for sure.

But you really don't see that with Jews. And Jews seem to be one of the few people who, and especially now, when Israel is in existence... it's not like all Jews moved to Israel. No, there's still a large presence of Jews in the Diaspora, those we know that are Jews, but if you're talking about the Ten Lost Tribes, right? But there's a large presence of Jews, and they maintain this strange relationship to Israel, very strange. I mean, for some people, it's like they're not even sure. Some people call it a "dual loyalty," or "can we trust them?" You have even that little thing in the air as well, but it's not exactly the same as other nations and other nationalities. So what's going on here? Did you ever stop to consider what's actually at play here? Is there something else? Is there something deeper, more than just, as you said, the sense of adventure?

Seth: For example, you have someone who's what they call an African-American, right? And he says to himself, okay, so my ancestors were taken over on a slave boat to get here. So he has his story. And you can say for probably almost every people, they have a story. So the question, what we're trying to get at is... is it just you just walk into an ice cream store and there's 70 flavors and each one just is a different flavor? But everyone has their thing. But we're trying to find what is that unique [element]. And that's all very important for humanity. But we're trying to say is there something specific going on with this Israeli nation that's not just... not just, but it's not only on the level that all humanity shares, that every human shares some kind of story like that. Is there some other eternal story that is going on here? We feel there is, and it's interesting to kind of squeeze this drop of oil out of each olive we bring onto the show to see where does he also see that happening? And that's what we want to squeeze out of you if possible. Not the story that all of humanity shares because it's an incredible story and there's so many colors and variations. But is there something specific to Israel or specific to Jews? And that's what we want to discern together.

Jeff: Sure. I think, obviously, 2,000 years of exile, Jews were persecuted in more or less every country in which they lived. I think I once read that India is the only country where Jews have not faced antisemitism, but otherwise that has been the story in every other country. In the Holocaust, one out of every three Jews then alive in the world was exterminated. And during the Holocaust, there was no country in the world that threw open its doors to welcome Jewish refugees.

And so there's always been this element in modern Zionism that this is the ultimate refuge and secure place for the Jewish people, and Jews cannot be confident of their long-term safety in any other place. And I think since October 7th, I think those fears and that perception has only been reinforced by this outpouring of support for the October 7 attacks that we have seen in countries that, previously, we would have thought of as friendly countries, supportive countries, tolerant countries. And yet somehow they have been really energized by what Hamas did to Israel on October 7th.

Lio: Did you, Jeff, maybe from a different perspective, did you ever face antisemitism growing up in America?

Jeff: Not really, no.

Lio: Not really. And so did you ever think, or did you ever have a reason to think that Jews are by any means different in what they're facing? That it's maybe not just the usual strand of racism or bigotry that other minority groups are facing in the world? Did you ever consider those things as you were doing your historic research, as you were growing up? Or are you just kind of walking through life thinking, well, you know, just like everyone else... it's a big world, there's all kinds of people, there's also Jews, yeah we have our quirks, but in the end of the day, we're all humans, we all want the same thing? I'm curious to know how you see this.

Jeff: For me, I tend to see it through a historical lens. Basically, what the Jewish experience was during exile, and in particular during the years leading up to World War II, through the Second World War, through the Holocaust, and since then. And I don't think there's another people in the world that has a similar story. Certainly there have been groups that have suffered oppression, even exterminations. You think of the Armenians, you think of what happened in Rwanda, the killing fields in Cambodia. But I think the Jewish story is unique in just how widespread, how almost universal the experience was across all sorts of countries of different ethnicities, different religions and all of the rest.

Seth: In the books and in the history that you studied, did you find some connection? Did you have any connection to God or any connection to a deeper meaning? Were there any anecdotes or any quotes or something that felt that there was something higher that was pulling him?

Jeff: No, the opposite, actually. He was not religious.

Seth: I'm not talking about religious. Not at all. Something unknown, something that's just compelling him. It doesn't even need to know about it.

Jeff: No, not at all. No, he was very thoughtful about what he was doing. And, you know, look, we all may be driven to some extent by forces beyond our recognition, but he was very thoughtful in terms of how he made the decision to come. And he did not ascribe it to mystical forces or divine forces or anything of the sort.

Seth: What did he ascribe it to?

Jeff: Basically, from his point of view, it was one of the few times in history that Jews had an opportunity to stand up against oppression.

Seth: And when was he living?

Jeff: He was living in Los Angeles.

Seth: And why did he care?

Jeff: He cared as a Jew. He cared as a Jew who had experienced 1940s-style American antisemitism, who had encountered it during his service in the U.S. military. And he hated this image of the Jew as someone who was incapable of defending himself, incapable of fighting, a lamb going to the slaughter. And he saw in the struggle playing out in Israel an opportunity once and for all to put those images to rest.

What made him remarkable was he stood up and he acted. He was someone who did not have a religious background, didn't have a Zionist background specifically. This is not something he was brought up to do. And he took immense risk in doing it. In the short term, he took risk to his citizenship and certainly to his life. And there were hundreds of thousands of Jewish veterans of World War II in the U.S., a great many of whom had sympathy for what was going on in Israel. But in the end, only about a thousand actually made the trip, made the sacrifice, took the risk.

Lio: And nowhere were these people asking, how come this is happening again and again and again? Have you ever asked that question? I mean, you've lived long enough to at least personally witness several cycles of this phenomenon. And also, to be frank, it's not like it ever went away. It's just like every time it kind of goes under, it puts on a nice mask. And then, but as soon as there's an opportunity, you see just coming out.

We had a guest here on the show. He lived in Amsterdam. And the day after October 7, October 8, everyone just felt like, "Oh, finally, we can speak freely about our antisemitic feelings that we've been harboring forever." Right. So that is also a very strange phenomenon. Have you ever thought about why this is not leaving us ever?

Jeff: You know, honestly, I'll be honest with you. I don't spend a lot of my time, a significant part of my time trying to understand that antisemitism. It's a phenomenon that exists. It has always existed. I see no reason to believe it will ever stop existing. And for me, I've chosen to place my focus in terms of my writing, in terms of my activities with things like the Sticker Project on the Israel side of the equation and what is going on in this country. Why is it interesting? Why does it resonate with me? Why does it move me? And to try to bring to light stories like Stan's that I think are incredibly compelling that I think are not talked about enough. It's not interesting to me to try to figure out why do they hate us so much? Why do they hate us so much in so many different places over so much time? Honestly, it's not a focus for me.

Lio: It's a lot of passion for me. So let's shift to the other side.

Seth: What are we living for?

Jeff: Exactly. I think what's so compelling about what's going on in Israel is just the resilience of this people in surviving, and not just surviving, but thriving. You're talking about a country that's been at war for the last 77 years, and yet it has a thriving economy, great healthcare, great quality of life. People are happy, people are fulfilled. It doesn't mean that there isn't stress and trauma here, but it's a remarkable people.

And what led me to the sticker phenomenon... basically after October 7th, we started to see in the streets here, stickers honoring people who were killed on October 7th, and then soldiers who fell in the fighting, whether in Gaza or in Lebanon. And these stickers invariably had a picture, had a name, year that somebody was born, the year that they died. But then, somewhat amazing to me was they typically had these slogans or these sayings, and really joyful, positive, meaningful sayings. "Remember to laugh," "Love your neighbor, even if he's not like yourself," all sorts of messages to try to encourage people to live their very best, their very happiest, their most purposeful lives.

And I just thought it was amazing. And what you don't see in these stickers... you don't see anger, you don't see hatred, you don't see lashing out. I mean, to me, it's just absolutely extraordinary. And I hate to make contrasts, but it's hard not to compare this in some ways to the types of funerals that you see for like, members of Hezbollah that are killed and people are firing guns into the air and vowing revenge and vowing to join in martyrdom to reach Jerusalem, this kind of thing.

And this really, this cause, this Zionist cause, these Israelis, they fight out of love. They fight out of positivity. The first sticker that really caught my attention was one that said that "He fought out of love for those behind him rather than hatred of those in front of him." And I found that to be incredibly authentic, incredibly accurate in terms of how Israelis feel. And I just think it's a remarkable thing. And it's not what you would expect. I think in every country in the world, I would expect in most countries in the world that there would be an effort made to honor fallen soldiers, but not in this way.

Seth: Each one was like giving me... I was feeling how powerful and warm and loving each message felt. Very much incredible. And the juxtaposition you made between the fighters on the other side, it's literally night and day.

Lio: It's literally light and darkness. Because you know, one of the things, Jeff, that we found... again, I'm not trying to drag you into our particular fascination with antisemitism, but what we did find is that a lot of the Jewish sages when they speak about it, they speak about this quality of love that you mentioned that needs to live among us. The quality of love that you saw, that we saw really come into life abruptly on October 7th, after the country was almost on the threshold of a civil war. And the ability to shift into that and to let that be the driving force, that's really unparalleled. You don't see it anywhere, as you said.

And I'm curious to know, for you, is it surprising to you to know if I tell you that throughout history all the terrible calamities that befell the Jews, the pogroms, the expulsions, all those things... they always followed a great surge in Jewish disunity. Always. Almost as if there is a connection between the way we relate to one another, whether we are able to be in this state of selfless love, as so many of those stickers actually say and speak about in different ways. And almost, I think in our first season as I said, we followed throughout Jewish history, and it's always, every big calamity was always preceded by this huge, deep rift among people, inability to see the other, to rise above the differences. And the exact opposite of what you find right after October 7th happened, where people just put aside everything, all the other garments, and just focused on each other, on helping, on raising each other, and celebrating this love between them. Some of them total strangers, right, who gave their life to others. So would you be surprised about this connection between the way we relate to each other and the way reality is changing around us?

Jeff: I guess I wouldn't be totally surprised. I guess I would be a little surprised if that was necessarily a universal, consistent experience across time and communities. I think the Jews who were driven from the Arab countries in which they were living prior to '48, I don't know that there was internal discord within those communities. I think that was more a reaction to the founding of the state. But I would defer on it. It's just not a subject of my expertise. And I try hard to stay in my lane when it comes to things that I feel like I know, and not to venture too many suppositions about things that I really have not given my strong attention to.

But certainly, from what Israel has uncovered during the war, it was an expectation on the part of Sinwar and Hamas that Israel was on the verge of civil war, and that it made the time ripe to attack, and that that attack would accelerate essentially the discord and the division and the fighting internally. And of course, the result was the opposite. The result was that it brought Israelis closer together and made them, certainly for the duration of the war, forget their differences, forget their arguments. And that is a powerful source of strength for this country.

Lio: Yeah, I mean, we actually quoted... we brought actual quotes from Sinwar and everybody, but they were following closely that state. They were waiting for the weakest point. Almost as if putting a mirror up to us to the way people were. And again, when you see it one time you can say, "Well maybe it's a reaction or it's a coincidence," but when hundreds of occasions are a repeat of the same phenomenon... and when Jewish sages themselves talk repeatedly about the need for Jews to stick together, to love the other more than you love yourself, basically care for each other like a family.

For us, and we're just sharing it with you as two regular guys... I grew up in Israel, Seth grew up in New Jersey. And when we met in our 30s, we were both coming at it from our own personal experiences. I also didn't grow up with antisemitism. It wasn't like something... but it bugged me to no end that this thing is happening. And the connection between the way we relate to each other and what's happening around us. And when we started to see examples like that in history, when we started to see examples... so many Jewish sages talk about it in the same way. When we started to see corresponding behavior in network science—of humanity as a network and Jews also play a part in that network—that's where TheJewFunction comes from. We were just starting to see so many connections. It was something that was hard to just shake off as a coincidence.

Jeff: I think that there's this notion—I think it comes from the first Rav Kook—that the Second Temple was destroyed because of needless hatred. And the Third Temple was built because of needless love. And I think that that is a concept that actually resonates in Israel across the spectrum. It doesn't mean that there aren't arguments. There are strong arguments here. But I think that it is a healthy thing, a positive thing to look inward and to try to ask, "How can we do better as individuals, as a people, as a community?" I think that's very healthy. And not to overly focus on the defects of our opponents, but to focus more on how we can do better and be better and where that might lead.

Seth: 100%. Feel that the results, the good result, is in our hands. It's not about anyone else. In fact, and this is what we're trying to squeeze out of every conversation we're in, is that it occurred to us that the world is a reflection of what happens—or the world's attitude towards the Jews or even the world at large—is a reflection of the Jews themselves. Regarding what Lio said a minute ago about Sinwar... so Josephus, you're a historian, you're a military historian, you probably read Josephus Flavius.

Jeff: I'm familiar with it, but I can't claim to have read it.

Seth: Well, he's great, and especially if you like military history. So he says about Titus, who was a Roman general, that he said that when they were entering Jerusalem... the Jews were in a civil war at the time. And he said, "Let them kill each other. It'll save a lot of Roman blood." I'm paraphrasing.

Jeff: Yep.

Seth: Yeah. I mean, people don't know that. You know, we all learned that the Greeks tried to kill the Jews. We didn't learn that the Maccabees were zealous Jews fighting against Hellenist Jews. And that was the main war before the Greeks entered. And similarly, on October 6, the Jews were at each other's throats. So.

Lio: Also, by the way, for the Holocaust and before a lot of other... every major... Again, I'm plugging in our own first season for those who haven't heard it. And I invite you also to listen because we go era by era. And the story repeats itself with quotes from historians, from Flavius, from Paul Johnson, who's a historian, from antisemites themselves who write about...

Hold on. Jeff doesn't want to talk from the side of the antisemites. No, no. I'm just saying that for people who are curious about this, that those first 22 episodes really...

Seth: The story is not about antisemitism. We would love to change the word, get rid of it altogether. The story is really about our good future together. And the fact that we have the other side of the coin is all a reflection of what work still remains for us to do.

Lio: You know, I want to ask Jeff the million dollar question. Not the million, this is the half-million dollar question. That was the one before. We asked many guests, if an alien came to Earth and saw this unique group of people, Jews, that make up such a small percentage of humanity and how unique their history is. And even just some of the stuff that we talked about here today, how would you explain to an alien what is a Jew? Who is a Jew? What does it mean to be Jewish?

Jeff: I think that's what Mark Twain attempted to do. And what was the name of that book? Letters from the Earth?

Lio: Yeah. It's our quote at the beginning of our podcast.

Jeff: Yeah, and it's a powerful quote. I can't remember it specifically, but I know what you're getting at.

Seth: Let me read it for you. Perfect. "If statistics are right, the Jews constitute 1% of the human race." Actually, it's point two. "Properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. His contribution to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music..." Hold on. There's one where he names the Romans... I can't find it here. But he says, "All things are mortal but the Jew. All forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret to his immortality?"

Jeff: Yeah. It's a powerful quote. And one of many powerful Twain quotes when it comes to Jews.

Lio: How would you define this to an alien?

Jeff: I guess I would just say that if you look back in human history over the last several thousand years, the Jewish Zionist story is a unique one. That this was a people that was dispossessed. They were exiled from their land 2,000 years ago, sent out into exile, went from place to place and not as a unit, but were scattered within the community and speaking different languages, observing different customs. And yet somehow holding onto this joint dream, this joint vision of one day a return to Zion, and managed to make that actually happen. And in the process revived a language that hadn't been a spoken language for 2,000 years. And it seems nothing short of miraculous.

There was a great quote from Winston Churchill when Ben-Gurion proclaimed the state, where he said that this is an event in history that basically should be seen in the context of literally thousands of years of history. It is so unusual. It is so unique that this people managed to find its way back. It is just an absolutely unique story, and there really is no other parallel to it in human history. So I think there's something worth looking more deeply into there. But yeah, I mean, I think for me, it's just a wonderful story. And in my own small way, I'm happy now to be part of it.

Seth: This is very interesting what I'm feeling from our conversation, because Lio and I are always salivating for the big story. You called it mystical. We'd call it... I don't know what we would call it, but this messianic, neither of us are particularly religious people, but some world peace utopian kind of vision of what could be in our role and all that. And what I hear from your conversation, and each time I'm trying to come to it from a different angle, you're like, "No, it's just simple people like this." And I can't squeeze that out.

What I'm coming to some new understanding also here is that we're just part of this thing. Even the people who don't have some sublime, as you call it, mystical reason why... there's still this thing inside of us that is pushing us forward, pushing Stan forward, pushing you forward towards this, whether it's from an intellectual side or whether it's from some faith side or something like that. But it's such a... what's the word... tapestry, this nation.

Jeff: I think it's interesting. I think, you know, obviously you have within Israel communities that think very deeply about this. You know, about history, Zionism, the religious component of it, the religious Zionist community. They're very thoughtful about all of this. But I think the majority of Israelis are secular. And they just intuitively understand the importance of this state, the need to sacrifice for it. And they have this, I think, internal confidence that somehow, some way, it's always going to work out. And they don't translate that into "because there's a divine promise" or "because God is always going to watch out for us." It's just something that they intuitively believe and act on that belief. And that's pretty amazing.

Lio: It is. I mean, that's definitely one of the things that I had some friends who were non-Jews who came to visit. In fact, we have a lot of non-Jews here on the show who feel this interesting way about the way Jews, Israelis, and Jews perceive reality in the world. So it's, again, to us, it's just one more example of this uniqueness. And there's something about those people that we can't just simply chalk up to, "Okay, that's, you know, Italians are like this, French are like that, Jews like that." It's a little different, a little deeper than that.

But it does make you realize that there is, for us, an opportunity to do something with this feeling. Whether you ascribe it to a divine presence or not, we also don't care about it so much. What we do care about very much is that nothing is happening without a certain sequence of forces at play. We were part of a system. And what we say is it doesn't matter. You can call it a divine thing, a mitzvah, or a law of nature. It doesn't matter. If you jump from the second floor, you're going to break something likely, right? Because that's the law. So we're looking for similar ways to make our lives even better in Israel and around the world. And we believe that all the information that we've seen points to the fact that somehow there's a cause and consequence between how we relate to each other and everything else. But at the very least, it makes a lot of sense for us to try to relate to each other more positively.

Jeff: Absolutely.

Lio: And I like all the stickers that I see on your website. And by the way, I see on my gym, there's like this glass wall before you walk in and it's now covered with those.

Jeff: Oh, that's fantastic.

Lio: And I see them everywhere, obviously. But the interesting thing is that when you look at them, nowhere does it say about, "Oh, this guy, you know, he was religious, he was secular, he was a liberal." There's none of that. It's only about his positive outlook. And 90... I want to say 95% of the time, it's about positive outlook relating to others. It's not about, yeah, some of them are self-affirming and all that. But most of it is about something to do with the other. And I find it remarkable because, again, you don't see it anywhere else.

Jeff: It's a real love of life. And I think it really is one of the things that's so distinctive about this country. One of my favorite David Ben-Gurion quotes, and I won't get it exactly right, but it was something like, "To be a realist in the Middle East, you have to believe in miracles." And at some point, an American Zionist came to Israel and visited Ben-Gurion in the 1950s and told him, "I really love this quote of yours." And Ben-Gurion said, "Yeah, but you have to work really hard for these miracles." And I think in some ways that's kind of it in a nutshell. I think here there is a faith that somehow, some way, it's going to work out. But there's no taking it for granted. And people are prepared to make any and every sacrifice necessary to try to ensure that the country will be able to survive and thrive.

Lio: Well, Seth and I hope that people are willing to make the sacrifice in their lives, not just to sacrifice their lives when all hell breaks loose. That's important. But that's already an end of a cycle. We really, what we're trying to bring to people who listen to this podcast is, hey, you know, do this while you're alive. Sacrifice your bit of comfort, personal comfort. Step on yourself now.

Jeff: One of the sort of classic Zionist quotes is what supposedly was Trumpeldor's last words. "It doesn't matter. It's good to die for one's country."

Seth: For our country.

Jeff: There's a line... in some of the stickers, you see the same line repeated. One of the lines that I've seen on several stickers is "Live for our country." And I think that's beautiful. And I think that's the right message for today, which is, of course, there's a need for people to defend the country, but the focus should be on living our very best lives, for ourselves and for those around us. And so, yeah, those kinds of messages are what led me to feel like it was important to make sure these stickers were preserved, that they were archived somewhere, that these messages were categorized so that people could really appreciate them. Because I think based on our review of them, they fell into like 15 or 16 different categories of different values: love and joy and daring and overcoming and kindness and all of the rest. I think there's immense power in that.

Lio: Do you have a favorite quote that stands out for you that you remember?

Jeff: Do you still have that screen up that you showed before? Because you showed a sticker there that is one of my favorites.

Lio: Hold on. Let me pull that.

Jeff: If you can go down a little bit further... they might have switched because I think it's always scrolling.

Lio: The one on the left? On this guy? That guy? Yeah, you know what, it stood out for me as well.

Jeff: Interesting. If you click on it, it'll bring up the English translation as well.

Lio: Oh, great. I was about to translate it myself, but sure. Let's see.

Jeff: So this guy was a member of Yamam, which is the elite police hostage rescue unit. "Don't ask for it to be easier. Ask to become stronger. Don't ask for fewer problems. Ask for more skills. Don't ask for fewer challenges. Ask for more insight. The great value in life comes not from what you received, but from the kind of person you become." I just love that. So powerful and such a great teaching, I think, for us. And, you know, truly words to live by.

Lio: Yeah, I'm always amazed because if you just read those stickers and you see the people, you're like, wow, these are really wise 21-year-olds.

Jeff: There's another one, actually, if you can go back there for a second. Search "Bunzel," B-U-N-Z-E-L.

Lio: Hold on. Oops. B-U-N-Z-E-L. Yep. This guy?

Jeff: Yeah, if you can pull that one up. So this guy, when he was a teenager...

Lio: Oh, yeah, I know. I mean, I remember when he was killed.

Jeff: Yeah. So his dream when he was a teenager was to become a commando. And he wrote this on his wall as a teenager: "Everyone wants to succeed, but not everyone is willing to pay the price in order to succeed." And he was willing to pay the price, which in his case meant having his father in the middle of the night drive him out to sand dunes where he could train, climbing, crawling on his hands and knees with a kind of simulated assault rifle on his back. And his father actually filmed it and showed me the film. It was quite powerful. And he ultimately achieved his dream and became a commando in a paratrooper unit and was killed in the war. So he was thinking about this back then. And this line altered the course of his life. It affected how he behaved. And that's the part that I really love. And so many of these guys really lived what's in these mottos of theirs. And different ones of these sayings speak to different people in different ways. It's not just that everybody should be drawn to the same ones that I'm drawn to. But I think there's a lot here to inspire and to really help us live our very best lives.

Lio: I think that's yet another unique... something that's uniquely Israeli, maybe even Jewish. But certainly you see in Israel is the fact that all these people, they're not like career soldiers. Most of them are just like regular people, regular lives, regular life dreams, but they also have to have that quality in them that makes them get up and make the ultimate sacrifice for something. And again, this is not something you see in most other countries. You're conscripted and you get paid or you make a career out of it. But here... this is sort of part of who we are, the need to love life and yet be able to be willing to fight for it. This contradiction, as I think you said at the very beginning.

Jeff: Yeah. I mean, and of course, as you know, it's a citizen's army. I think it's understandable why the U.S. moved from a draft to a professional army. It's completely understandable. But I think you lose something in that process, invariably. And you lose a sense on the part of most people in the population that they belong to the army, the army belongs to them...

Seth: The U.S. plays a different role in the world than Israel does.

Jeff: Yeah.

Seth: Israel is always fighting existential wars surrounded by enemies. The U.S. has two gigantic, two of the biggest oceans in the world on either borders, protecting them from the biggest enemies. And most of the wars are far away. And, yeah, it's a totally different kind of, even geographically, how the whole thing plays out.

Jeff: Yeah, but it's a bit unfortunate when folks come back in the American military from Iraq, from Afghanistan, and you know, some of them wounded... I think they often find that most people can't relate to them and what they've been through because most American families don't have a connection to that.

Seth: Understandable. Why the war was fought in the first place or how it affects me and all those things... Prices are low or like, for what exactly?

Jeff: Yeah, no, I think so. It just creates a different kind of, I guess, dynamic within the society when burdens aren't shared more equally. And look, Israel has some problems with that, too, because you have the Haredi issue and all of the rest.

Lio: Full disclosure, this is mostly PR and politics bullshit. Excuse me for saying. Actually, it's funny because this government... again we're not talking politics but just so you know, so everybody knows... this government actually has had more Haredi soldiers join the army without the law. The law is really just like an IED... one of those bombs they stick on the side. It's really what it is. It's just a political scam. It's nothing. That's why we're trying to stay away from politics because they reflect nothing except for politics.

Jeff: I agree. It's good to stay away from politics.

Lio: I mean, no, I got to know what we're dealing with. But I think the change will come from people. If people want something else, we'll have something else. And that's what we're trying to give to people. By the way, did you move to Israel or are you just staying here?

Jeff: Yeah, in 2022.

Lio: Okay, so you were here in the thick of it.

Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, you know, it's funny—well, funny, I guess is the wrong word—but I had always heard that challenging times bring out the very best in Israelis, and it really does seem to do that. It really was quite powerful for me to be exposed to this spirit of volunteerism. And, you know, even though running to shelters, sometimes in the middle of the night... and for people that don't have a safe room in their apartment, that can be quite a task. And during the Iran fighting, these old-fashioned bomb shelters in the basements of older buildings do not cut it. And so if you had small kids, if you had elderly parents, that meant in the middle of the night potentially going down the street to a proper shelter. And yet people basically carried on. They carried on with their lives. They carried on with their work, with education and all the rest. And you didn't see like an explosion of people acting out within society over the stress. And that was pretty impressive to me.

Lio: Jews are notorious for adapting. They had a harmonic orchestra in the Ghetto. It's like, we know. But it's also, it's part of our, I feel like part of our downfall that we often don't read the signs fully. We mistake a ceasefire or a temporary cessation of hostilities for peace or things like that, because we really want to see the good in everything. I think this is kind of like a part of our course. I think we have, again, we feel there's a reason for it.

But I think if the conversation with you has brought something interesting to us, is that, yeah, even without all the big story, just the remarkableness of what we have and trying to do a little better between us, I think that's already a lot to ask people, even before they subscribe to the big story. But if you do want to listen to it, you know where to come.

Jeff... so two things. I put a quote in the chat. Actually it's what you mentioned earlier so I just put it... we'll ask you to read it whenever you're ready. But before that, tell us where can they find your book?

Jeff: So basically the book is called Fighting Back. People can find it on Amazon available in hardcover, paperback, Kindle, and an audio version. And also my author website is jeffreyweissauthor.com.

Lio: And both are in the description of this podcast so you can find it there. And I'll read the quote which I love.

Jeff: "Since we were ruined by unfounded hatred and the world was ruined with us, we will be rebuilt by unfounded love and the world will be rebuilt with us." Yeah, I know, I love that. And actually honestly, I hadn't remembered the entirety of that quote, which is even stronger and more powerful and moving than I had recalled. I love that.

Lio: Nice. I'm happy you can keep it. I'll send it to you.

Jeff: I think at the end of the day, that needs to be part always of the Zionist message. Which is, it's not just about protecting the Jewish people behind strong walls and not being concerned about what's going on in the rest of the world. I think that wanting to have a powerful positive vision for the entire world, not just for the Jewish people, I think is a fundamental part of Zionism properly understood. And I think this quote conveys that in an incredibly powerful way.

Seth: Beautiful.

Lio: Beautiful. Jeff Weiss. Jeffrey. Jeff. Do you have an Israeli name already or is it Jeff?

Jeff: It's funny. When I was here in law school, my Hebrew name is Yaakov. I tried to switch. And after a month or two, I just gave up. I realized I'm stuck with the name that I was given. It's the only one I can really get comfortable with. And so it is what it is. Although I do use my Hebrew name when I order coffee because that seems to work better.

Lio: All right. So this was Jeff Weiss. It was a pleasure to meet with you and to have you with us here in Israel. If you're a Jew and you're listening, you're still considering if you should come to Israel, definitely come to Israel. See for yourself what's going on here, what's happening on the ground. We are TheJewFunction, and you can find all of the episodes on YouTube, on Spotify. You can find clips on X, on Instagram, on Facebook, on TikTok, everywhere. Really just search for TheJewFunction, one word, and you'll find this conversation and many other great talks with some amazing people who are really brothers and friends that you haven't met yet. So take the leap, subscribe, leave a comment because it helps. And we'll see everyone here on the next JewFunction. And we're out. Thank you, Jeff.

Seth: Thanks, Jeff. Thank you so much. Great to meet you guys.

Jeff: Take care, guys.

Lio: Take care. Bye-bye.