w/Keith Kahn-Harris | Everyday Jew

Lio

Hello, everybody. This is the JuFunction. I'm Leo.

Seth

I'm Seth. Hey, everyone.

Lio

And Seth is clearly better dressed than me today. But it's only because he cares so much about this topic. Every time we have a podcast, he wants to really be prepared for the best. And it is a very interesting time. We've had an influx of subscribers lately. I'm not sure why. We're still trying to figure out if it's a bug in the system where people are finally becoming more interested in this strange universal hatred toward the Jew and how it manifests itself in the West, in the East, really everywhere. And in the Jew function here, if you're new, you can find all the episodes on YouTube, on Spotify. You can find Shorts on X, on TikTok, on Facebook. And we're really everywhere. I'm surprised if you haven't heard about us, I'm surprised that you haven't. But now that you're here, you can join the conversation and share it because we're doing something nobody else is doing. We're not talking about the symptoms. We're not pointing fingers at anyone. We're trying to really take a look at ourselves and the relationship we've had with the world for the past 2,000, 3,000 years and see what we can learn from it. And I think we met a few really interesting people along the way. what's your feeling about this whole experience? Is it working?

Seth

Well, that remains to be determined. However, there's no choice. It has to work, but we'll see. We'll take the long short way or the short long way. What is interesting in the last few hours is this thing that happened on Grok. If you saw it, So I guess I don't know what happened. The handrails came off, the guide rails came off and the AI on X, Grok started saying things that the Jews are behind problems. If there was a certain person who could help solve the problems, it would be Hitler. And people then saying, you see, if you just take the rails off, it's clear who the problem is and why the problem is there and what we need to do about it. However, it's also interesting to note that these AIs are built on the current discourse of humanity. It's not basing it off of some objective truth that it has some pipeline into the heavens and then just pulls down the, you know, drips the truth from above. it comes from the cesspool below that um that it comes up but it's it's interesting to see how people react to it it's just interesting to see what's happening and certainly we're we're not at the end of this project um yes but the fact that more and more different flavors of of it uh reveal itself without it turning into bloodshed is actually a good thing. And we're not scared of seeing these things and we want to have these conversations because sunlight is the best disinfectant. So I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Lio

It's true. Just one more word on that. I think that everybody was hoping that as soon as the AI would show up, all of the problems of the world would disappear and we could just all retire. and

Seth

that's a few more years after the robots and everything, then everything will be fine

Lio

after they get rid of the Jews that's the thing I think the machines are just like any good creation by humans they expose the mind behind them as we know from Jewish sages, from your actions we shall know you you look at the actions of Grok and Chad GPT and all the other guys. And you realize, oh my God, maybe we are more racist.

Seth

So they asked, what can you say about a group of people who were kicked out of this many countries? And even the guy who asked the question, he got it wrong. It's way more countries than he thinks we were kicked out of, like by 10 times. But the AI is like, well, certainly if there's a people that's kicked out of all these places, there must be some problem with them. yeah it's interesting stuff and we need to air this all out and understand what's actually

Lio

happening well if only we could find someone who who has the intellectual curiosity and the moral seriousness and willingness to to have a conversation about this um and as it happens we do have someone like that today on the show um and uh and i'm i'm very happy to um introduce our guest. I actually, you know, there's a lot to say about him. I try to make, I try to use AI to make a short bio. He's a British sociologist.

Seth

Did he spit something anti-Semitic out?

Lio

No, not yet. Let me read through it. He's a British sociologist, writer, public intellectual, and he writes about Jewish identity, anti-Semitism, racism, extremism. He wrote books about the denial, the whole idea of denying the Holocaust. He's a senior lecturer at the Leo Beck College in London and associate fellow at the Institute for Jewish Policy Research. We'll ask him about that as well. And he wrote about a bunch of things. And I also maybe summarize so that he likes heavy metal. Not sure. We'll see. We'll ask him. Please welcome Keith Ken Harris from London.

Keith

Hello, Keith. Hi, thanks for having me.

Lio

Well, turn on the camera. Oh, there he is. There we go. Hi. Hello, London. So, heavy metal? Are you into that?

Keith

It's a bit more than being into it. I write about heavy metal. It was extreme heavy metal, in fact. It was the topic of my PhD thesis in my first book. And in fact, some of that was looking at, I did a case study of metal in Israel. This was in the late 90s. It's a while ago. So I've written a bit about Jews and heavy metal as well. It's one of the things I do.

Lio

Nice. But sadly, we didn't invite you to talk about heavy metal, although there are a few. By the side note, I know there are a few really interesting heavy metal bands, Israeli heavy metal bands, and they perform in like the most craziest places, Muslim crowds and anti Jewish crowds. and they all cheer for them. But they're all, you know.

Keith

Yeah, metal can... Metal breaks connections between people.

Lio

Certain kind of metal. There's a certain kind of metal. There's the other metal.

Seth

Before we get into the meat of the conversation, but let me ask you, the whole thing with the screaming when you can't understand anything they're saying, what's that all about?

Keith

Well, I mean, that depends on the particular metal genre. Not all metal genres do it that way. I think the idea is you're pushing everything beyond. You're pushing guitar noise beyond so it becomes harsh. You're playing very fast or sometimes extremely slow. You're dealing with very difficult, edgy, transgressive themes. And so the vocals reinforce that. It's part of it all goes together to create. and extreme sound.

Lio

So, Seth is a musician also, so that's why he's curious. But maybe we'll do a side podcast on that. I really want to hear about your work on Jews, on Jewish identity, on this whole topic, which, again, I don't know, maybe you spent more time than us exploring it. But we invite people and we ask them here on this show, why do people hate the Jews? And you argue in some of your writings that it may be something, it's not a conscious hate, it rests on other things. Maybe it's a failure to see Jews a certain way as real people, or there's maybe other features of our society to blame for the way people view Jews today. But I wonder if beyond the particular shape of antisemitism today, if you have a sort of a longer view on it, what from your research have you found on Jew hatred? Is it a simple case of ignorance and bad environment or is there something deeper going on here?

Keith

I think the way I approach it is to, while not ignoring the continuities, to appreciate that anti-Semitism works in different ways at different times and different places and manifests itself differently, has different causes, and is very much a product of the particular historical circumstances the social circumstances in which it emerges. I think, I do believe that there are continuities between them. I do believe we can talk about anti-Semitism, duhetry, whatever you want to call it, as something that has appeared and reappeared in different times and different places. But acknowledging those continuities does not blind us to the fact that it works in different ways at different times. And also that it is, and one of the most crucial points, I think, is that the degree of salience in an individual's personality in their life does vary. So that can mean everything between a particular individual on a particular occasion saying something into Semitic without much thought, on one end of the scale and at the other scale to making, dedicating your life to destroying Jews and all points in between. I think that most of us are a complex mixture of sometimes contradictory tendencies to the way, the place that anti-Semitism holds in that can be very complicated. Another thing that I've written about a lot, particularly in my 2019 book, Strange Hate, talks about what I call selective anti-Semitism, which is where you're selecting some kinds of Jews to be philo-Semitic towards and other Jews to reject. So that deepens the complexity of this even further. So whilst, as I say, whilst I am not dismissing the idea that there is a phenomenon with considerable continuities, I think it's really vital, and I say this as a researcher, to actually dig into the particular circumstances of what antisemitism looks like at a particular time and place in history.

Lio

So I guess the question is, I have two questions of what you just said. even if we, as you said, acknowledge that different places, different circumstances produce different types of hate and there are continuities, we should look at what's happening before our eyes, understand what's motivating people right now to try to understand it and deal with it. The question is, if it keeps happening, what does it say about us? You know, if it's only one time, you know, two times, three times. But if it keeps happening to us, as some people argue. And it happens to us with Christians.

Seth

It happens to us with Muslims. It happens to us.

Lio

For different reasons, as you say. But it happens nevertheless. We keep reaching the same point in the relationship. It's almost like, you know, you start dating and, you know, you break up with every girlfriend. Eventually, like, hmm, maybe I don't shower. There's something wrong with women. Yeah, exactly.

Keith

So one of the key questions, therefore, is what does it mean? What is the role that – it sounds strange to say it – what is the role that Jews play in anti-Semitism? Right? Now, there is a particular view that says anti-Semitism is not about Jews. It's about what people think of Jews, how they relate to Jews. And people sometimes argue that quite passionately because to say anything different implies that we have a responsibility for it, that it is the result of something that we do. And people don't want to go down that route. Or are what they believe or whatever it is. And understandably, most Jews don't want to go down that route. For me, I think we have to acknowledge that people seize upon certain aspects of who Jews are, not bad things, and they twist those things. They'll take something like cashwits and see it as a kind of an example of Jewish barbarism. It's just one random example. So, yeah, it is connected to who we are. But I think the most important thing here is to consider the weight of history. History develops its own momentum. And once something gets embedded as a tradition, as part of the cultural imagination, if you like, then it becomes, it can easily become part of the bedrock. And there was a paper published a few years ago by Professor David Feldman, Ben Gidley, and Brendan McGeever that talks about the anti-Semitic reservoir. I think it's a really nice metaphor. So there's this whole resource of ways of thinking, ways of saying about Jews, particularly in Western countries, is very much not just in Western countries, but particularly in those countries, is part of our common cultural inheritance. To the point where people aren't necessarily aware that that's what it is, You know, that these things become so normalized that even people who sincerely would never see themselves as anti-Semitic, would not want to be anti-Semitic, draw on particular imageries or ideas that have a long history. And it's very easy to do. It's very easy to do. And so that's, there is a, once things get into that cultural bedrock, even if circumstances are 100% have changed massively over time, then they become too easy to actually use, even in radically different circumstances to when they first emerged. Now, I'm not saying that explains all anti-Semitism everywhere. New traditions are created all the time. or much more recently, anti-Semitism adapts to particular kinds of countries in particular kinds of ways and takes its place in their cultural bedrock. But I do think that time is a huge factor here. And the fact that Jews remained in the world, particularly that they remained in the Christian world, gave this stuff time to embed itself. Another thing is it also can be very useful. It's very useful to have a people you can point to who are pariahs, who are responsible for the bad things in the world. That's quite a helpful thing to have. It should be said that Jews are not the only people who fulfilled that function, right? in Europe, particularly Roma have often fulfilled that function. And in other parts of the world, in Asia, they're up, they have their own prior peoples, prior people are helpful, right. In developing it, in creating a simple worldview and who better to take than us to provide that function.

Lio

But if I may challenge you and feel free to jump in because I'm taking all the airtime but uh if i if i can challenge uh some of the things you said which by the way uh we were kind of following the same train of thought as we got into this right we uh you know we didn't grow up with particularly too much anti-semitism turned you know against us directly maybe seth a little even a little more being you know living in america than me living in israel in the 70s 80s 90s it's

Seth

like you know it's only dealt with more of that like reservoir stuff that just people didn't like oh you're a jew like i thought you know like like as if like they expected to have horns or

Lio

other things in there yeah right but but and the more we we kind of uh you know try to peel the layers we we saw some of the things you say but for a lot of those arguments um there's there are a lot of counter arguments to them that's the first thing for example yeah every culture has pariahs but only the jews were the pariahs who gave so much to the world It's not like we're only fulfilling the role of pariah. You find that in many groups, but those groups usually do live up to that image. Jews, on the other hand, have this beneficial altruistic side and inventive side and this amazing reservoir that is almost in proportionate to our size in humanity. They gave the world the weekend, for God's sakes. Yeah, right? And yet it's still not enough. So that part is not. And also when you add all those things together again, it's like you're asking yourself, okay, if only we could disappear 2,000 years ago, there would be no more antisemitism. But since we stuck, you know, we stuck around, then there's anti-Semitism. But people do change attitudes. You know, people change attitudes toward, you know, gay people, women, this, that. There's changes. Even those that are deep-seated and they rely on these big reservoirs. But with Jews, it doesn't seem to work.

Keith

Well, there is change, though.

Lio

Is there?

Keith

Well, there's certainly change within the nature of anti-Semitism.

Lio

negative change, no?

Keith

well yes, you could call it that but I'm saying that it may be that antisemitism is part of the fundamentals of antisemitism was the accusation of Jews killing Christ that is still an argument that resonates in certain sectors, but certainly in largely secular societies like we have in Britain you know it's not it may that itself does not resonate but the kind of like cultural echo of it does i mean i i think i would probably challenge what you're saying is that it the the choice of us as pariahs is more absurd than is the case with other groups i think it's quite a dangerous route to go, but I'll leave that aside for one minute. What I would say is that for a lot of our history, we haven't had much of an opportunity to do anything more than maintain our own cultures. In terms of giving stuff to the world, I was a bit moot for a lot of the periods where we've been around, you know, behind the ghetto walls. There wasn't much we could do for anyone, much but ourselves. There have been other periods where that's not been the case, where we have contributed to things. That's certainly true. But I don't... Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Sorry.

Seth

I'm not sure that's actually true. I mean, yeah, of course. If you're in a ghetto, there's not much you can do towards the outside. But when it comes to, you know, there's writings that say that Pythagoras was studying with the sages. There's accounts of all the wise men of other nations coming to Jerusalem to meet with the prophets. When you look through medicine, when you look through the Rambam, when you look through science, when you look through culture. I don't think you can't point to Jewish influence everywhere. When you look at culture, when you look at monotheism, when you look at marriage, when you look at family structure, family values, when you look at love your neighbor as yourself.

Keith

We certainly had a pivotal position in the generation via Christianity and also via Islam into the world. Whether we're quite as central as that, I'm not sure. We are one source of wisdom in a world where there are a lot of different sources of wisdom. I would say there's another thing that I forgot, is that partly out of constraints, we have been, our smallness, I think, plays a role. We are not, there have been periods in time where Jews have been much more active in searching for converts. But in a lot of our history, it's been extremely unwise to search for converts too openly. And that has kept ourselves relatively small to not have to stay within small communities wherever we are. And I think that it's not a judgment call, but I think that that can be disconcerting. Our smallness, I think, can work against us. I also think that the other things we do that maintain our cohesiveness can be disconcerting too. I think the question of our survival is, again, there's work against us, even though there's some very clear reasons, very clear practices that have contributed to our survival, such as Shabbat, such as kashwara, such as our emphasis on doing things and community cohesion. that all those things start can put us in a position as there's something there's something scary about these people who can survive all these things without asking for without trying to convert us i think maybe i sometimes wonder if we'd actually try to convert more people we'd have been more culturally comprehensible you know because that's what

Seth

christians did that's what muslims did let's talk about like the the essence though of of this people because maybe from that we can like we're talking about the garments you know throughout the generations that this people wore but let's get to the essence of who they are and maybe from

Lio

that we can discover something yeah because you because you write about the the concept of Jewish

Seth

identity and and the question of whether it's you also have a book like uh what is the they're not who you think they are, right?

Keith

Everyday Jesus Christ.

Lio

Right. Yeah. But in general, you talk about whether our identity is a response to antisemitism or whether antisemitism is a response to our identity. So, you know, help us out here. Maybe we could get to the core of things. You know, what is it about our identity? Not just about these expressions that you described, which, again, we can't really change them. We can't unsurvive. We can't start converting people en masse. These things will not happen. So maybe something more about the essence of Jewish identity that you can talk about that may contribute to this negative attitude or can also espouse a positive attitude down the line. Maybe there's something there.

Keith

I spend a lot of my life as a researcher trying to puzzle over what is Jewish identity. And it's often difficult enough to try and work out what Jewish identity is today, let alone the cultural and historical continuity. Because particularly since Jews are, as we all know, they were quite a fractious people, we often disagree on some fairly fundamental things. What I would emphasize, though, is our survival in often very unpromising conditions, our geographical, our cohesion, despite enormous cultural dispersion. I think in and of itself, I think that has become and becomes more almost with every day that passes something that is actually hugely important in the development of Jewish identity. If you still identify as Jewish in any way, you're not identifying with something that was invented five years ago. You are inserting yourself into this historical chain that is almost overwhelming. that is, and it is very much almost our expectation of survival despite everything, is certainly something that has a very powerful impact on Jewish culture, but often a contradictory one. On the one hand, there's this pride in survival. On the other hand, there's this also fear that we will not survive. And often it's that sort of the two together that creates the uniqueness of Jewish identity. And I think that also has some that anti-Semitism is connected to that as well.

Seth

But is it just, are they just, is the people just an accent? Like, I really want to push towards the center of this.

Keith

Well, look, this is where I think we're probably going to, I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from, but I think it's probably where we're going to part company.

Seth

Let me tell you where I'm coming from. I want to understand, like we could go to any time period and really discover all of the things around what happened at that certain time and in that certain situation. but i'm what we're trying to do is get to the heart of uh we feel that if you gave it another jews another 2 000 years and we don't solve this there'll be another you know a couple hundred different clothings that the anti-semitism takes depending on the culture and depending on the place there's no gonna be no shortage of them and we can study all of them what we want to say is If we can get to the heart of this situation, like water, it's always going to, you can do a lot of things with it. If you understand the fundamental thing, it's always going to find its lowest source. We want to get to that. That's why I'm asking.

Keith

Well, as I say, I think it's probably where we're going to part company. because politely, of course, in a friendly way, is that I don't think there is anything that either guarantees our indefinite survival or the indefinite continuity of antisemitism. I don't think that there is a magic bullet, a metaphysical one or a sociological one, whatever you want to call it, that has kept us around. I think there are certain themes and practices that have contributed to that, and they build over time. I think there are continuities. But I think part of what I was doing in my most recent book was to kind of take the temperature down a bit. The world, I mean, unless, if you believe in evolution and the history of the human race, We've only existed for a tiny fraction of human history. We may exist for millennia longer. We may not exist. We may, the reason why we continue may have, don't continue if we vanish, it may have to do with anti-Semitism or it may not have to do with it. I don't think there are any historical guarantees. I don't think there are any historical guarantees that we ended up where we are.

Seth

What about biblical guarantees, for example? We're not religious at all. I wouldn't call it, I mean, not at all. We wouldn't say we're religious, but let's say fine. Historically, no. Is there something else? Like, let's say biblically.

Keith

I certainly think the Bible is the centrality of the Bible in our people. While I don't believe it is, that covenant is something that guarantees our survival. The belief in that covenant has certainly had an enormously powerful effect. Right? I think that we want to survive. We are preoccupied with survival, and that can create cultural continuity. That can be enormously important. I just want to keep digging.

Lio

I want to keep digging. Before you keep digging, I just, because you...

Seth

Oh, look, he's smiling. I see his eyes are shining.

Lio

I want to get in there now. That's okay. I'm losing my momentum. I hope Keith is having a good time. My point is, you guys, both of you, this is glossed over history. And I'm kind of like, I'm like taking it back because, you know, as a researcher, you know, statistics are important. You know, numbers are important. And it's hard to say, well, you know, we don't know what contributed to our survival or if we'll be here another hundred years or not, or if the Semitism will be or not. Because as Jews, we have a pretty well-documented history.

Keith

No, no, I'm not saying that there is. I am saying we do. I think there are a lot of reasons why we have survived. And I think that they can be documented and they can be discussed. I don't think it's we just randomly ended up here. There are some very good reasons. show there's some good reasons why anti-Semitism has been such a cultural concept but what I'm arguing against is the idea that any of this can be tracked indefinitely into the future. I certainly think it could be tracked forward another few decades and maybe another few centuries but I think in terms of deep time and in terms of the human race I don't think we can have any guarantees there. And I don't, and I do, I think it's important for us to have the humility to recognize that there was a time before Jews existed, and that's actually the majority of human existence. And also, there were times, even when Jews did exist, there were vast ways of the world who had never heard of Jews, right? Until the middle of the second millennium, well, until the colonial period, nobody in South America or North America had heard of a Jew. Nobody in Australia had heard of a Jew or all these sorts of places. So whilst I'm not minimizing the enormous impact that Jews have had on the world, I do think it's important that we remain grounded in where we have a central presence and where we didn't. And this, by the way, this is not denying the extraordinary aspects of our history. It doesn't mean I don't, and I appreciate those things.

Lio

And it's okay. Again, we're not trying to claim for something, some special status here among the nations. What we are trying to understand is, If I'm looking at the world as, you know, if the world was just like a big high school, right? And in this big high school, there's the groups of people who are, you know, more, they're more in the front lines. You hear about them more. They're top athletes, the top, you know, science nerds, the top whatever, creative people. And then there's the rest of them. And also in the human body, there's some parts that are really, really active and very important for the survival of the body. Other parts that are, let's face it, not as important. And it's not to say that a hand is an amazing thing. I can live without a hand. So it's not to take away from the value of the hand. It's just to say there is a sort of a pyramid in every system in nature, whether we like it or not. So to say that, for example, Jews were not known in Australia or South America. okay, but South America and Australia also had minimal impact on the rest of the world as it is. So it kind of goes in the places where there was a lot of influence on what's happening in the world, Central Europe, Far East and Near East, Jews were known in those places. So I can't ignore the fact that, yes, we were embedded in history. We were embedded in all the centers that drove history forward in humanity without taking away from the value of everyone. It's just how it is. Where there was a lot of activity, Jews were there. And what we are trying to say is not forget about the future, but what can we learn about the past? Was there a common denominator that you can kind of take through it? And what Seth and I are saying without going around it too long is that the one thing that we could look at and that kept repeating itself in every interaction around Jews is that the idea of this Jewish cohesion and unity, when that idea was held high, was...

Seth

Hold on, even just slow it down a little bit. This idea being brought into the human conversation, that there was not before the Jews this concept of world peace. There was not this concept before Jews. It was natural, if you look at indigenous people or you look at tribal people, you know, it's natural that everybody, you know, lives as one. But once humanity started to individuate this concept, to disseminate this concept within humanity of brotherhood, to disseminate this concept within humanity of love the other as yourself, that's uniquely Jewish. And we seems to us, sorry, one sec. It seems to us that when we, that not key, that's the addition that Jews bring to humanity. Whether we don't exist later or whether we're not. And this thing, if when we don't uphold it, it seems, at whatever point in this story that we came on the scene, since we're on the scene now and in this chemical reaction with all the peoples, if we don't uphold that new law that entered into the system, then this force comes against us called antisemitism.

Keith

I mean, that's a pretty big argument. And for me to accept it, we're great.

Lio

This is the Jew function in a nutshell. Jewish disunity brings this force from the outside that forces us to come closer.

Keith

I mean, I don't think you're going to get any argument from me that anti-Semitism paradoxically does. Sometimes does good things for the Jews, at least in creating confusion in community and so on. But I would need an awful lot of comparative anthropological and historical evidence to suggest, A, that this is a uniquely Jewish addition to the world, and B, that those ideas, the dissemination of those ideas was central to being Jewish in the world. Let's try it on for a second, though.

Seth

If it is, I mean, your profession is being a researcher. Suppose you did research it at some point and discovered that there is some veracity to it. So what does that mean?

Keith

All right, I'll be provocative here. If that was true, I'm not sure I like it very much. And I'll tell you why. I want that kind of pressure. Yeah. I mean, this is what I argue. We agree.

Seth

We all agree again.

Keith

This is what I argued in my, as I said, in my latest book. I don't want, you know, I don't want the world to be dependent on us. Yeah. I sort of support a quite, I think, mundane, everyday Jewishness. It also has a value. Oh, we're with you. So, okay, we're living with each other. I don't buy the premise, or rather, I need a lot of evidence for that premise.

Seth

So you're like the reluctant Messiah, then, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't want this.

Keith

No, and of course, there's that from the life of Brian. Only the true Messiah would say he's not the Messiah. Exactly. Okay.

Lio

And there's truth to that too By the way Let me just plug in the Jew function for a second here On the topic of plenty of evidence We do recommend anyone Who hasn't

Seth

Let's just post it in the comments of this episode

Lio

No, no, I will I'm just doing a little promo for the Jew function That you should listen to the first 22 episodes Because that's where we do go through history And provide plenty of Both support from A historical perspective, just actual events writings of Jews, Jewish historians like Josephus Flavius, of non-Jewish historians like Paul Johnson, of anti-Semites who write about this particular trait in Jews that they're looking forward for the Jews to bring to humanity, and we don't do it. So there's plenty of that, plus words from our own Jewish sages and recent findings from network science. So this is exactly what the Jew function was investigating as best we could. So just to put that out there. So the question is, Keith, if this was the premise, let's say you received this email, you know, we got to do this. You know, this is it. What do you, what's your reaction? Or at least we got to try it out for a year. Let's try for one year to be Jews who love each other to such a degree that it radiates to the whole world. Not what we have right now, this reluctant thing.

Keith

I mean is that even possible I mean we also given the diversity that we have which includes over some extreme absolutely fundamental issues and also some really trivial ones as well is what I would suggest that maybe there is a kind of love in actually in that conflict you know Sometimes, at least. We care about our differences. We care about our good name, if you like. And a lot of the differences that we have are saying, you are undermining our good name. I think there is something about that. I think to some extent, only to some extent, I think conflict binds us together. that doesn't mean that i say yeah conflict necessarily conflict can be pertussed in all sorts of ways but i also recognize the reality that there is engagement there we're not apathetic about each other at all um you know like in it's the conflict israel palestine it's often a jew versus jew conflicts okay um and not and in things completely unrelated to us. It's often a Jew versus Jew conflict. Often you see it on stuff about issues about gender identity. It's one Jew, but another Jew about something that is not centrally a Jewish issue. And I do think there is something there, whether it's unique, cautious, there is something about that that demonstrates a kind of care. Whether you call it love, I don't know. Whether you call it unity, probably not. I think that speaking personally, this is one of the things that most maddens me about being Jewish, but also is one of the things that binds me to it, that I, in a certain kind of way, love, in a certain kind of way, hate. Now, if I got that email and I tried to live with an open-hearted love to other Jews for a year, I'm not sure it would actually look that different to the way I kind of at least try and live right now. In the sense that, I mean, you don't really know me personally, but I have written a lot about intra-Jewish conflict. I don't, I spend a lot of my time with Jews who I don't agree with on fundamental issues. I try and maintain good relations across the Jewish world insofar as I'm able to. But I think, I think that's okay. And I could obviously do it better. Sometimes I lose my shit, just like other people do. Sometimes I have blind spots. I could certainly use some help in improving that but I don't think open-hearted love I think in a way I do show the kind of love there but it's quite a realistic kind of love and these aren't required to be saints

Lio

that's for sure

Keith

no no we're certainly not

Lio

by the way we just had a guest the other together a couple weeks ago and she has nine brothers and sisters. She's one of the nine. And she's like, you know, I fight with my brothers. We bicker, we argue. When we are younger, we hate each other. But there was no question that these are my brothers and sisters, right? It was very clear. And then her rabbi somewhere was like, look, this is the people of your community. You don't have to like them, but you have to love them. so and and that and that's not talking about you know romantic love we're not talking about like oh i gushing all over you no but like you know i will do everything in my power to to to take care of you and you will do the same for me even though we may i think understanding it in terms

Keith

of a family i often do think of it that way uh as a family that drives each other crazy but ultimately cares about each other where though there are complicated incidents though about okay what happens where your commitment to that family comes in tension with commitments to other things that's where things become really difficult

Seth

oh it's messy this is very messy there's no doubt about it no question and complicated and full of contradictions and everything that's we just want to get to the premise you know figuring out the how is a whole thing and that would require and also i think by the nature of it no one person is going to come up with um with the solution it's going to be through the all those different ones getting together

Keith

but but the thing is though is that even if we if we became a people along these lines with that kind of quasi-familial love. I'm not sure what difference it will make. It will make a difference to us, no question. Whether it makes a difference to the world, I'm not sure. Okay, so here's another piece of our picture.

Seth

When we look in part of our content, when we look at network science, There's this concept of nodes, hubs and nodes, and that Jews perform this function in the world that you go to pornography, you go to medicine, you go to banking, like wherever you go, there's some Jew, you know, there who because he it doesn't matter whether it's the worst possible human or the best possible human. this quality of being able to tie people like i'm in heavy metal you dive deep in you're like wait what like ozzy's wife is you know like married you can't escape you know what i mean it's like it's everywhere you go the the the biggest uh hardcore gangster rappers that came out of compton in la like they all had jewish lawyers and jewish managers it's just like in every kind of thing there's some little or big jew in there who's doing something so that so if we identify that that's a phenomenon then what we're saying then is we don't need to run all the internet wires we just need to do this thing and somehow by us doing this thing it it flows into the network somehow i mean like

Keith

I certainly think it's true that we're so centrally involved. We have so many fingers in so many pies that if we behave in an exemplary manner in the various things we do, then yeah.

Seth

Or even if we're not exemplary, but we still try and love each other because we're all flawed, right? I mean, that's just how we're all made.

Keith

Well, yeah, I mean, I can cautiously buy into that, I think. I certainly think. We'll take that.

Seth

We'll take a cautious buy-in, I think.

Lio

I want to add to that because it's not just the example, the visible example you see on the outside. There's stuff that's happening. That's what network science is showing also. Those hubs and nodes. it's not simply a physical, tangible relationship. There's stuff that's passing in the network between people. You can't measure it. You can only see the effects of it. And they only saw it when they looked at data from the Farmingdale, Farmingham Heart Study that was done over 18 years. They didn't have the machines back then in the 70s and 80s to do it. But today they have the machine to look at all the metadata and they could see all these connections between people. And they were like, how come, you know, if you light a cigarette, then your friend has a certain percentage of extra desire to light a cigarette. And a friend's friend has that desire. Which book was that in? Connected by Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler. It's a great book. When it came out, it was like mind-blowing because it started to talk about these ideas, but not from the Jewish sages' perspective. We just said, you know, no calamity comes to the world but for Israel. No good comes but for Israel. Oh, that sounds like a biblical axiom that I don't agree with. They actually saw that people are influenced this way, right? Sexual preferences, political preferences, eating, smoking, you name it. It's all passing in the network.

Keith

Well, I mean, in that respect, it's ironically, and there is quite a lot of what you say I agree with. It does kind of validate anti-Semitic ideas that Jews are, because we're everywhere, we're spreading our poison everywhere. it and i'm not sure i will and i kind of resist taking that and saying oh let's do that but in a good way like what the ad say let's see what it said is true but we're going to do it in a nice way um i mean i think we also have to remember what the limits of those networks are there are entire spheres of the world where we are absent or where we're a minority or where we're not that important.

Seth

We can start where we are, though.

Keith

Everyone has to start where they are. That's certainly true. In terms of saying, I also think that even if we are the most exemplary people in the world, I'm not sure it's going to stop anti-Semitism because part of the point about anti-Semitism is it is not based around a realistic assessment of who Jews are and what they give to the world and what they don't give to the world. But I have to admit, I like the idea that the network science thing does teach us some things that's quite useful. I think one of the things that it teaches us, and I think this absolutely is in a lot of Jewish teachings, is the importance of our everyday interactions with each other on a very earthy level, right? We are not people that, the theological model is not you're saved or you're damned. It's about what you do day in, day out in your interactions with others. And of course, we often fail those standards because they're very difficult to live up to. But it's something that does speak to me, absolutely. And I think it is also realistic as well is the sense that, you know, we don't know. I can't judge whether my presence in the world has been a benefit to humanity or not. But I can say on that occasion, I fell short. I hurt someone. Or I can say the opposite. There are times I can point to where I say I did something really good there. I made someone happy. I made I cared for them. And so in terms of morality, in terms of changing the world, those are very appealing ideas for me, both Jewishly and as a Gimubi as well. Not that there's a difference.

Lio

We're drawing toward the end of our conversation. And I have to say, all the stuff that the artificial intelligence said about you is true. You are, you know, they say that you're, you know, a pleasant to speak to and that you're, you know, you speak with great empathy and, you know, all those things, which I didn't read because I wanted to see if it's true.

Keith

You haven't seen me on a bad day.

Lio

That's okay. That's okay. I have a feeling that even on a bad day, you'll just say, I'm having a bad day. Leave me alone. And then we can talk later. I wonder if, you know, we usually let our guests read something from the sources. Because, you know, network science is nice. Historic patterns are great. But, you know, there's nothing like going back to our Jewish sources. I don't know if you know the Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisrael Meir Akoin. Yeah. So I have a quote for you from him. If you don't mind reading it for us, for everybody listening. And then if you, you know, I put it in the chat now. And then, you know, whatever comes to your heart and mind, that'll be great.

Keith

So this is by Rabbi Yisrael Meir HaKohen, popularly known as the Hafez Haim, in Remembrance of Miriam, Chapter 11. When does creation find flavor with the Creator? When all Israel are bundled together, and there is no jealousy, hatred, and competition, between them whatsoever. And each one of them thinks only about the correction and well-being of his friend. Then the creator rejoices in his creation, as it is written, the creator rejoices in his works. And this explanation is in reference to love thy friend as thyself, I am the creator. So tell us that if one loves his friend as himself, then I, the creator, am in your midst and love both of you. That's very nice from the guy who did the Huffits time. He was the guy who did the Lashon Haran, right?

Lio

Among other things.

Keith

Yeah.

Lio

He's got a bunch of really great...

Keith

He was quite into niceness. That's funny. That's his name. The nice guy. All right. Thank you. It's been an interesting discussion. Thanks for taking it. Seriously.

Lio

I enjoyed it. It has been great. please uh stay uh really special as you are and uh you know i know we didn't get to touch on heavy

Seth

metal uh more which would be an interesting conversation yeah look we're both musicians

Keith

it's not like uh you know so well i just published just today uh something about the um the farewell gig the ozzy osborne's farewell gig last saturday so people can look up for that if you want if people want to hear uh read more of your stuff uh where where can they find it or or any other any of your my k-h-n-h-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-

Lio

all right then so thank you to another thank you thank you for being in our circle um we love it uh and to everyone else uh please like share subscribe leave a comment here on spotify you can find these talks everywhere listen to the first season i'm not joking when i say it will blow your mind at least it'll give you good stuff to discuss around your shabbat table or wherever as you're having discussions. And we'll see you all next week. Thank you. And where did you function? Bye-bye.