What drives Jew-on-Jew hatred? w/ Norma Livne, El Mundo

Lio: Okay, and we're live. Hello, Seth. Wait, I'm hearing myself. Let's see here, I can turn that off. Okay, yes, we're live, and it's not a coincidence that we are. You know, we're still alive while everyone is trying to make sure we don't live somehow. Against all odds, we're doing it.

Seth: Was there divine intervention in the U.S. election on Israel's behalf? We'll see.

Lio: Remains to be seen. Yeah, remains to be seen. I don't know. I think maybe we're given, you know, we extended some credit because we represent the new generation of media creators. So I think maybe the system wants to see how we're doing, if we're contributing to the good future of humanity or not.

Seth: When you have the negative situations that happen, like very bad, that moves the needle in a serious way. So then everybody galvanizes around that.

Lio: Right.

Seth: And when times are really good, usually we lose that. Assimilate more and go back out. So it's interesting. It will be, it's important for us now that if things get better, meaning on the ground, looking better, we have more friends, more support. Those, I heard Trump say that any university that doesn't stop the antisemitism on the campus is going to lose funding, things like that. And I also heard that he said on day one he's going to lift all arms restrictions between the U.S. and Israel. So when things seem to be good like that, then it's really incumbent upon us to add extra powers while things are good. That's the time to...

Lio: Isn't that—you always bring this up—it's like, good times, bad times make strong men; strong men make good times; good times make weak men; weak men make bad times, right? So it's kind of like with us, right? Bad times bring the Jews together. When Jews unite, they bring good times, and good times roll in. Jews are like, all right, you know, we're out of here. And then separate Jews.

Seth: We could actually do this like quadrant, and we could actually go through all these different periods of history.

Lio: When Jews are in disunity, they bring bad times, and then it repeats.

Seth: So now we need to break the cycle or raise up to the next degree, to a new kind of reality.

Lio: I'm ready. I'm ready. And I want to jump right in because this is a hot topic, and I was exposed to it recently, big time. And we're trying to make these, especially these live ones, very relevant to what's going on also in Israel, the war. So, you know, if you're tuning in and if you're new to this, feel free to check out the first 22 episodes. But if you're not new, if you've been here already, you know what we're talking about. But we're trying to connect this to the actual events on the ground, not just talk about big historic arcs, but really connect it to the here and now. And there's a great talk that is just coming up. I think it's going up probably by tomorrow, if I'm not mistaken, with Gary Wexler. It talks about the communication wars. And it was recorded right before the election. We didn't know that Trump was going to win. We knew he was going to win, but there were still some doubts. It's interesting to hear that talk. And now I want to talk about something that, on the heels of an article that came out, said that Qatar and Iran paid South Africa, the ruling party in South Africa, the African National Congress, the ANC—I guess it's like the DNC in the U.S.—they paid them a hefty sum to engage the International Criminal Court in The Hague against Israel. Remember that whole thing, the lawsuit and the arrest warrants supposedly about to make their way for Netanyahu and his Ministry of Defense and all that. So it wasn't a surprise out of the good heart of the South Africans. It was motivated by money. But that's not surprising. That's how world politics is. What is surprising is that there's a leading newspaper in Israel, and some of you may be reading this newspaper right now. Maybe you're holding the paper as you're listening to us. It's called Haaretz, right? The land, the country, the land. And it's a very popular newspaper. It's very left-leaning, very liberal. But what you may not know is that it's been actively engaged in de-Zionizing Israel. It's actually trying to undermine the foundation of Israel, make it a country of all its citizens, not the land of the Jews. And it's been doing a lot of unsightly things, things that are less than democratic, in the name of this vision, all the while supporting the protests against the regime revolution, as they dubbed it, that was actually trying to make the country more democratic. So that's the irony here. And I'm trying to understand, and I hope our guest is going to help us—she was here before—I'm trying to understand how we have this, I don't want to say it's blindness, nearsightedness, or just plain stupidity that enables such hatred of one group of Jews, Israelis, Jews, I guess the majority, actually. This is really beyond my comprehension. And this is even, you know, it goes even in the face of logic, right? Like logical arguments—there's no logic there. So I want to invite our guest today. She was here before, and we had such a good time, so we invited her again. She has a long list of credentials. Her background is in journalism. She was a Telemundo reporter, a CNN World Report contributor in El Salvador. Then she eventually made her way to Israel, and now she's hosting the show El Mundo, which talks about current affairs through the lens of the wisdom of Kabbalah. And she also wrote a book about Jewish self-hatred, The Enemy Within. I'm sorry—she was involved with two books, New Antisemitism: Mutation of a Long-Lived Hatred, and Jewish Self-Hatred: The Enemy Within. And she's working on a new project I hope to hear from. So let's invite Norma to join us, please.

Seth: Hi, Norma. Hello, friends. How are you? Thanks for joining. Good. We're very good. Nice to see you again.

Lio: Yes, yes, yes. You always bring such calmness to the...

Seth: Lio named the titles of those books. I'm like, who would want to spend time—like, how depressing. But you come, and it feels calm and happy.

Lio: Yeah.

Norma: I think it's the influence of the environment.

Lio: Yes. You are responsible for that.

Norma: Actually, I helped to do the research for those books. The author is Michael Lightman. But I'd be very happy to share some impressions from those books. And yes.

Lio: So I think, you know, you heard some of the things I said about—you know, you're familiar with the newspaper, I imagine, right? It's a well-known newspaper. And for years, I grew up on this paper. I grew up in a very liberal, people-loving household. Everybody was just trying to be good people. There was no religion involved, but not even the other side. Nothing was too extreme. It was just, let's be good people, live happily together, and be the best we can. That's the philosophy that I grew up on. And Haaretz was and still is a staple in our household. But when I started to get exposed to the campaign that this newspaper and the owner of this newspaper, Amos Shoken, and the editor-in-chief, Aluf Ben, I think his name is, were running, I was shocked because it wasn't about simply having another opinion in the mix. It was about really silencing every other opinion, and only promoting just this one view that this is the way we should be living here. And I'm shocked because they want to—they're explicitly—and recently the owner went to the U.K. and talked about the terrorists from October 7th, the freedom fighters. And he also, they talk explicitly about taking the Jews.

Seth: Verify, Lio, that the owner of Haaretz called the October 7th guys “freedom fighters”?

Lio: He said worse things. He's not very coherent in the way he speaks, but he's just very passionate about that. That's the one thing that I guess works for him. He can't really hold an argument, but he's really overflowing with this attitude of his righteousness. And the mission is to take the Jewish out of the Jewish and democratic nation of Israel, even though, ironically, in the Declaration of Independence—I don't know why I call it a scroll—in the Declaration of Independence, the word “democratic” doesn't even appear once. But “Jewish,” founded on the principles of our fathers and our prophets, that's there. So it boggles the mind how they're doing this. And I have additional horrifying, hair-raising facts that we'll pull out as we go. But what do you think, Norma? How can such a group of people live here and work seemingly to take the foundation from under the building that we're in? How does that reconcile?

Norma: Yeah, I assume that you come from a Tel Aviv household, because Haaretz is very popular in Tel Aviv, but the rest of Israel, I don't know. I'm not sure. In any case, it's one of the main newspapers, a left-wing newspaper. I don't know if I can compare it with the New York Times or with Le Mans in France, but there's a readership that takes it as something that is credible and that there's no doubt that they have a very intellectual direction and that it's something that we can trust. But when you hear those remarks, what comes to your mind is what you said. It's shocking. I mean, the last name of the person is Shoken. Actually, it should be Shoken. Amos Shoken is the publisher of the newspaper, and he was in a conference, a Haaretz conference in London, when he said what he said, that the Palestinian terrorists are freedom fighters. And the Haaretz board tried to distance itself from those controversial remarks because they caused multiple government ministries to cut their ties with the newspaper. So the publisher wrote an article saying that he apologizes for those remarks and that he didn't mean it, that he didn't mean it in that sense. He said, “I shouldn't have said that Hamas are freedom fighters,” but he left aside on purpose other terrorist groups. So he didn't help to calm the waters inside the newspaper, inside Haaretz, and also in different circles. I would say in general in this country and in other places as well, in other Jewish communities. And that's what they said. They tried to distance themselves from the publisher. And they said that the fact that he didn't mean to include Hamas terrorists doesn't mean that other terrorist acts are legitimate, even if their perpetrators’ goal is to free themselves from occupation. That's the end of the quote. If we take into consideration the tendency throughout history of the Jewish people, we'll see that this is not an isolated case. We see that there are a series of events back from ancient history. One of the reasons for the destruction of the Temple was precisely that—disunity within the Jewish community and self-hatred, meaning self-antisemitism. It's a concept that we don't want to hear. Of course, it's not pleasant, but it exists. And I could say even more than that, that the Jewish people is a unique case of self-hatred. You don't see other nations trying to annihilate their own people with their criticism. Historians have looked into that and they have realized that this is a unique case. So this is something, of course, that raises questions about why that is and what we are supposed to do to avoid that kind of behavior or acts that at the end of the day only affect us as a people. And as a consequence, we see even more hatred against us. Because when we hate ourselves, what we're saying is that it's fine to do that, and we are giving permission to others to do the same to us.

Lio: It's interesting. This last line that you said, I heard it in another talk with an expert on the Middle East and Arabs. And he said something harrowing. He talked about a case—I don't know if we brought it up in the talk with you or someone else; I have a bit of a déjà vu—but he talked about the case where Israeli female soldiers were pimped out to Arab terrorist prisoners. Do you remember that, Seth? We mentioned that on the talks.

Norma: Yeah, it wasn't me, but I know.

Lio: Yeah, and it was silenced by a member of the Israeli Knesset, by a feminist actually, Merav Michaeli, who was a champion of women's rights. But the story made her whole equity and diversity in all professions seem a little shaky, so she silenced that story. Basically, the wardens pimped out female guards to these prisoners. And the person who talked about this story said, well, are you surprised? If you're willing to do that to your own daughters, then the other side will easily do it to your daughters, to your women, right? It's like you're doing it to yourself. So, of course, they'll do it to you. It just hit me—that's exactly what you just said. We hate ourselves. Then it’s easy to hate. Of course—look, you hate yourselves; why don't we hate you as well? I mean, you deserve it. Even you say it.

Norma: Exactly.

Lio: But I wonder where does it come from? And I'm not talking—I don't want to get too far out into the root of everything, as we like to get to sometimes too quickly. But really, just kind of looking at the facts of history around us, is this a tendency that we have to try to identify with the other side too much? Are we trying to be the best at everything, and that includes also this kind of human rights mission? Or is this because we like to argue, so once we take one side, immediately we'll take the other side as well? What do you think this sits on within us? I mean, I can see pressure from the outside and hatred from the outside, but from within, it's kind of like, how does that even exist? As you said, it doesn't really exist elsewhere.

Norma: Yeah, it's written in the Torah that we're stiff-necked people, so it's not new. We love to argue. I think it's part of our nature to have different opinions about anything and everything, and it's a fact. We cannot escape that. I think it's part of our makeup. At the same time, it doesn't mean that we have to abuse that, and this is, I think, the line. As a journalist, I can tell you that I'm in favor of freedom of expression. But what is the limit between freedom of expression and the right of people or a group of people saying that it's good to eliminate or to destroy a country or destroy a nation like the State of Israel? These people are not only expressing their ideas, they are also actively trying to annihilate the whole nation. When you see that "From the river to the sea," that's what they're saying, that Israel has no right to exist. So that's a completely different phenomenon. And it comes from this idea of haters of Israel from within trying to identify with the cause of those against Israel. They are trying to be accepted by them, but they don't realize that they put everyone in the same basket. Those who are pro-Israel or those who are against Israel, from their point of view, they don't accept Jewish people. So it doesn't matter where we come from or what our ideas are, or if we sympathize with them, at the end of the day, they put us in the same basket like in ancient history. It's the same. Or even during the Holocaust, they won't come to rescue us if we are in jeopardy or if we face any kind of danger. This is the thing that we don't realize as a people, that we have only ourselves.

Seth: But we feel that if we are against Israel, then they will accept us like them. There's something that we would probably need to open up more, and that is that what happens in the... It's a premise that is at the foundation of the work that Lio and I are doing, and also I see it in the books that you worked on, that what happens in the Jewish people is like a microcosm of what will happen in the world. And you said this is a uniquely Jewish phenomenon, and as I look through history, I agree with you, but actually in the future, what we just saw in the U.S., like in my children's high school and in my children's college, they were both being taught this diversity, equity, and inclusion thing. They were limiting people into schools based on race, racial profiling. Everything became based on race again, not based on merit. And then also in Europe with immigration, in places like London, there's a guy you guys have probably both heard of called Gad Saad. Not exactly sure what his credentials are, but he's a professor and he's all over the podcast world now. He has this expression called pathological empathy or suicidal empathy, and it reminds me of what you're saying because we also saw it in the U.S., but there was just an overwhelming election that says, no, we don't want that, even though this liberal elite was pushing it. It's probably something similar to what's going on in Europe, where our feelings, the feelings that you just said, these feelings to be accepted, these feelings for this kind of broader good that we want, maybe at the root, cause this irrational empathy where we do things that actually kill ourselves or kill our society. And there's got to be then, if we see that happening, that what happened, what's happening with us now has happened in the U.S. and happened in Europe. Ideally, the flip side of it would be that if it was another way, then the good would spread to all these places. The question is, do they not get any feedback, the Jews, after all this time? In your opinion, you also wrote in your book about in World War II how there were Jews that actually sided with the Nazis. Is it not clear where this leads? What is not clear? You laid out the problem, and we understand that what happens with the Jews starts to happen in other places around the world. It becomes an epidemic. Is it not clear enough to these intelligent Jewish people where this leads if they keep going down this road?

Seth: Because the whole world follows.

Seth: The whole world, there are ripples out of what's happening amongst the Jews.

Norma: Right. You both probably will agree with me that it's also a very Jewish problem that we don't learn from history. And we see that even today, there are some people with some kind of influence who are very active against Israel. And reading some information before this show, I read something interesting. Jill Stein, for instance, she was running for president in this past election for the Green Party, a Jewish left-wing activist. And she was endorsed by the former Ku Klux Klan leader, David Duke. I think he's a well-known person, the highest-profile white supremacist and antisemite in the U.S. And when he was asked about his endorsement, he said that she was the candidate with the strongest stance against Jewish power because she opposed Israel's military campaign in Gaza and in Lebanon. But she's not the only one. You also have someone like another journalist. That's why when I read the story about Haaretz in the newspaper, it wasn't a surprise to me. You also have Peter Beinart in The New York Times. He writes all the time about why he became an anti-Zionist and why he doesn't believe that there is a legitimacy of the Jewish state. And they are very active. That's the thing. It's their cause in life. That's their main goal in life. So when you see those examples, but there are plenty of them in the BDS movement and also Israelis living abroad, you know, just recently there was.

Seth: So it's amnesia. It's amnesia.

Norma: Right. And you see that they multiply themselves.

Lio: I'm sorry, you say amnesia; it's kind of forgiving. I think it's almost like idiocy. I used to think that these people are really intelligent, but when you look at the whole approach, it's not pragmatic. It's not rooted in reality. One of the main writers at Haaretz, his name is Gideon Levy. You know him well. He writes about Arab relations. The guy doesn't speak Arabic. It's like sending someone to cover U.S. elections, and it's like, how's it going? I don't know. I don't speak English, but it looks nice. The colors are... How can this guy write about it? And he writes stuff. And at one point just recently, Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor of The Atlantic, he said that he's taking a break from Haaretz after he was getting emails from antisemites quoting Haaretz. He's like, it's a little too much.

Norma: Exactly.

Lio: Right? Exactly.

Norma: That's what happens.

Lio: But my point is, it sounds retarded. Excuse my word. I don't know if you can say that, but stupid.

Norma: I think that they make a career out of it.

Seth: I think also it's an echo chamber somehow. Because until this election, you couldn't walk around. My kids, both in school, said they couldn't during and after October 7th. I have a son in university, and when conversations were going on in class, he said you couldn't even have an intellectual conversation because you couldn't talk about certain points of view, because you'd be ostracized. So it becomes an echo chamber. I think, especially in the elite circles, if they all believe it, or if they're all talking about it, and they're all getting rich off it. And it does seem very ideal. Here's something that's worth mentioning. There is someone who's, for example, a philosophy professor. So that's all well and good. But to go out and live a life, there's a lot that changes on the pragmatic level. You have a great idea, but implementing a great idea often means that in the process of building what you want, you have to dig a hole. If you want to build a skyscraper, the first thing you have to do is dig a hole. And anyone who walks by says, no, you're doing the wrong thing. You've got to go up. Why are you building down? The concept that we would all get along, great concept. The concept that there would be coexistence, great concept. The concept that the Jews should be the most ethical, the most responsible, the most civilized in every action they do, it's all great. But there seems to be a disconnect. I mean, Lio, do these guys have kids who serve in the IDF as well?

Lio: Yeah, some of them, absolutely. I mean, again, I don't want to bundle everyone in the same boat, but just as an example of how strange that is, this whole thing. Haaretz is playing an instrumental part in that, as I mentioned, this. Who's paying them? Well, people say Soros is sort of a catch-all, but I'm sure there are others besides Soros who support that idea, out of some imagination that this is the way to a peaceful, comfortable life here. The way I understood it is that they, especially here in Israel, think, okay, let's look into the future. If you have one state for Jews and Muslims, eventually it's going to be a Muslim majority. They're going to vote us out. We can't have that. So the solution has to be some sort of a two-state solution. And to get to that, we have to bypass the will of the majority. So to do that, we have to institute some sort of a juristocracy, like an autocracy of the courts, which will help us bypass the will of the people, essentially. So there's this whole plan in place. It's not all, but it's founded on very weak ideals. Like you can separate the Jewishness from the people who sit here. Like people will fight over—no offense to anyone—but go to war with Hamas over gay rights. It's not going to happen. People fight for Jerusalem, for the right of the Jews to live in a place where people speak Hebrew and express their opinions, and are attached to the Book and all those things and other even deeper things, not for some progressive ideals. People don't go to war for that. So it's something, and also that the other side is somehow interested in that as well. That's also a source of fallacy. And they were very close to achieving their goal until the 7th. I think the seventh changed everybody's plans because it stopped that momentum. But again, you guys know we're not super political and we are talking about bigger things. I have a different question to Norma. I wanted to approach it from a different place altogether. And that is, how do you think you can get people to even open up to these ideas? We're sitting here, we're talking about these things.

Seth: You've done a ton of research. Which idea, Lio, that it's better for the Jews? No, no, no. First

Lio: First of all, the idea that you should maybe read something else, open up a book that you would

Seth: Never read before. So not Schocken. You're talking about... Yeah, for example, I'm thinking this side,

Lio: I'm really concerned about the future, the ability of Jews to even get to these wonderful places that we're describing in our shows. This working towards unity and the national education about unity and doing all this stuff that we mentioned. But if we don't have even a sovereign country, you can't even get there. And obviously, these people are getting funded. They're getting money. So I'm asking you guys, let's think together for a second. How do you get people to reconsider their beliefs, their thoughts, that maybe the thing that I've been reading and holding on to for years. Maybe it was good at some point. Maybe it's not so great right now. Maybe I need to listen to some independent new media like this. Maybe I need to challenge some of my ideas about who's good for the Jews, who's not good for the Jews. Things like that. How do you get that, Norma? What made you go into that? Maybe that will

Norma: Inspire people? Well, first of all, I have kids like you, and I'm worried about the future. I see that the future is uncertain, and it's only because of us, because we don't realize that it's up to us to change the situation for the good. And the only way to do that, from my point of view and based on my research, is to click the restart button on education. We need to invest more in our kids, in our youth. There's a problem with Jewish identity, and this is something that you mentioned, Lio. I think it's quite important that that's the key of the issue. If you don't have a solid basis on Jewish identity and what "light unto the nations" means—that it's not a slogan, but it's a call to action, meaning that we need to unite as Jews to bring the light to the world where there's darkness. If we don't do that, then I think our future is in question. And that's what we're seeing now. And first of all, we need to open our eyes. If we don't see that there's a problem, how are you supposed to solve it? How are you supposed to find solutions to do that? And in the meantime, I think the events of October 7th were a wake-up call. And some people opened their eyes. But the rest remained the same. And I think this is a call to action to everyone.

Seth: I don't think so.

Seth: And that was something very extreme.

Norma: And we don't need that kind of events to realize what we are supposed to do.

Seth: We need a compelling future. We need a compelling goal that we're able to communicate. For example, in the U.S., in the last year and a half or two years, the price of groceries is much higher for everyone. It's very clear the price of insurance is much higher for everyone. It's affecting all of us. And someone who comes and is going to lower it, that's compelling. Now, it's a short-term thing, but it's a compelling goal to get people to move. Maybe it's not even that good. Actually, it's still just escaping from pain. The compelling goal would be—I'm trying to think of a good example of one. I don't know. But what is a compelling goal that doesn't sound like utopian bullshit that people can... that the Jewish people in the Land of Israel... So, for example, build the Temple, restore the sacrifices and the glory of the Jewish people. There's a small group of people who are into that, and that's a good compelling goal for them, and they get up every day willing to fight for that. But for the majority of people, rebuilding the Temple and restoring the sacrifices as in ancient days is not a compelling enough reason to get the majority of Israel and the majority of Jews to want to come together. What is a compelling reason?

Norma: The survival of the Jewish people. Survival of the Jewish people. The survival of the Jewish people is still being kicked from behind.

Seth: It's still—I'm running away from pain. I'm talking about something good in the future because what happens after we survive? Norma, they came to kill us. We agreed to unite in order to survive. And now, 150 years from now, we're back here. Three other people are having this exact same conversation. We survived. Now it's shitty again. And what should we do? We need a really good, compelling goal in the future to aim toward.

Norma: I agree with you, but I think that in the short term, that's something that we cannot take for granted. You cannot say for sure that everybody feels that their lives are in danger. If you talk about the survival of the Jewish people, maybe a year ago or two years ago, they probably said, Oh, you're exaggerating. We are fine. We are prosperous people. We are accepted. We are part of society. And we're not in danger.

Seth: Has this guy Shulkin just got a death wish then?

Norma: It's not that bad. Even Israel. Israel is a very strong country. Nothing will happen to us. And you see that there are seven different fronts against us. And we see that Iran is also threatening all the time. And inside America, as a Jew, do you feel 100% safe? No, of course not. You see what happened in Chicago a few months ago?

Seth: This weekend in Baltimore—guys marching with, not in Baltimore, in Ohio—guys marching with Nazi flags. It's happening everywhere.

Norma: In New York.

Seth: So is the guy Shoken just retarded? Is he just slow? Is his brain not working?

Norma: What I'm saying is that when you don't feel the danger in your own skin, how are you supposed to act?

Seth: Why doesn't he feel the danger?

Norma: Because that's the thing: we don't realize that. So that's why I'm saying that that's the starting point. You can talk about the very big plan, but if you don't take the first step, you won't reach that goal because it's too far away. So this is a turning point that we are facing now. And if that's not enough to shake us, what can make that difference?

Seth: It's not enough.

Norma: I'm asking you. It's not enough. I'm asking you. It's terrible.

Seth: It's terrible. What could—if there's still—first of all, it's not enough if you have guys like Shokin doing what he allegedly did. It's not enough. And Ehud Barak and whoever else out there. So what would? I don't know. Because even—as you have a chapter in the book, the Jewish self-hatred, the enemy within—even during... I had to actually, I told you this last time, I had to peel the cover off because I was flying and I wanted to read it. And you can't be reading a book on an airplane called Jewish self-hatred. I literally took the cover off and put tape on the spine. But even during the Holocaust, even then, there were Jews who—it wasn't... Well, in that case, you could probably say that the ones who sided with the Nazis did it just out of survival. Right. It wasn't because they probably believed in the Nazi mission. But you asked, What would make them? If October 7th wasn't enough, what would make them agree? And I can't even say that the Holocaust was enough to make all the Jews agree. So it would have to be very, very, very, very, very bad, God forbid, to get all the Jews to agree. And so hopefully we can come up with something compelling. And we don't need to get all of them. We just need to get a critical mass. Because then what happens is that moves. We don't have to go for the most fringe guy out there the farthest and try and convince him. But we just need to move the mass in the right direction and everyone will just be pulled there.

Lio: Well, my point on this is that maybe before we get people to agree, some people to agree—because we have some people who agree with us, I know. I know we have great guests that come on the show and they talk. And I know they have followers who listen to what they say. I think the thing that I'm struggling with these days is how to get people to just consider that they may not have all the answers. Just maybe I'm not the smartest guy in the world, like that. A bit of humility, maybe. I don't know; maybe it's one of the missing qualities in the world. Everybody's self-absorbed and has this little phone thing that he can search everything, and once you find the answers that you like, that's it, I got it all. But it's not the case. So on the one hand, I agree with what you guys said, that there's probably some form of self-preservation that goes into what everyone is doing. Everyone's trying their best to do something. I'm sure even when we talk about Soros with the Darth Vader music playing in the background when we mention his name. I'm sure in his mind he's doing something good. I don't think he's walking around thinking, I'm going to destroy the world. I think he thinks that he's helping to tear down certain things that belong in the past and trying to make a world that's more right globally, open, and all the rest of it—some ideas that are, on paper, good. When you grow up you think that's the world we need to live in, but then there's reality. So what I'm asking, I guess, is how do we get people to look more at reality, agree that maybe things that we've decided on, that we—some choices that we made—were not right? You look in Israel; the approach to the conflict here locally was incorrect. I'm not sure what is the right one, but I know that this one was not working. Treating it like a conflict about land, treating the other side as sharing the same values—economic fulfillment being the highest goal of a person's life. All these ideas, they're not right. This is not Europe. You can't work with the same guidelines. So I'm asking again, what would get someone to get Norma's book and to read it on a plane even? How do we do that? And we can't wait for everyone to have kids and to have their kids. Oh, I'm sorry. I just remembered all this meandering. I finally remember what I wanted to say earlier. One of the guys that's part of this block on the left, former general, chief of staff, Eisenkot—he lost his son, he lost his nephew, and today he lost another nephew in the war. Three guys already from his family. So you're asking yourself, does that change something about how he thinks? I don't know. But all I know is that everybody was waiting for him to leave the cabinet so the military can actually go and do what they need to do and all the rest of it. So I don't know. It hurts on a personal level. People get hurt, people die. It's not a mathematical problem. It's a human problem.

Norma: Yeah, so responding to your question and also Seth's question, what is the goal? So the goal, based on what we've been talking about all this time—first of all, the ultimate goal is to be safe, to have peace, and to have a good future for us, for our kids. Or even if you don't have kids, regardless. In fact, if you are a single person, it doesn't matter. We all want to have a good life, a life where we don't feel chased all the time or threatened. We want to have a good life. That's it. How are we going to achieve it? So that's my point. First of all, we need those kinds of samples like in the past. I think we need to read more. We need to be informed about our past and how the past and self-hatred in history or throughout history shaped us not properly and how it affected us. All the destruction of the Jewish people came from those divisions in the past. And when we see that, we look in the mirror and we will see that there's something inside us that we need to change. We have been very busy throughout history trying to change others, trying to find people responsible from outside, but we don't have this kind of introspection, looking inside at what we need to change. We've been very busy trying to find what separates us, like ethnic background or accents, color, political opinions. We've seen that during this last campaign. People within the Jewish community don't sit at the same table for the holidays because they have opposite views on political issues. We've been very busy with that. Or on the other hand, some people told me, when I said that unity is the solution, Listen, but unity is what brought us problems, because people say, Oh, the Jews are united, and it means that they are strong and they are against us. So this is the perception that we need to change. It's not that we are united against others but for our own sake and for the sake of the world, because that's our call. We are the light unto the nations, according to the Torah. So if we believe that—which is another statement that is kind of controversial, but it's a fact—you know, it's a chosen people, chosen for that. It's not from above, trying to look at others from above, but it's a responsibility that we are meant to bring that light, that unity, that example to the rest. And this is the opposite of what we are doing. So first of all, we need to be conscious. We have to be aware of what is our mission, what is our role in this world, why we are here. Why is there this small, tiny people? We are 0.2% of the entire population in the world. Why are we still around, despite the fact that we were trying to be annihilated by others, by the Romans, by—you know, throughout history, you name it. I mean, everybody tried to destroy us. Six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. So according to any conception, we are not supposed to be around. So why is it that we're still here?

Seth: So maybe we're onto something. When you say the unity of the Jewish people, there can't be such a thing that the Jewish people are united and other people are suffering because of it. If you want to bring up the Torah, when it says, I'll make you a great nation, and through you all the families of the earth will be blessed, there's a pipe of goodness, let's say, that comes down from above into the world, and either we're blocking the pipe or we're fixing the pipeline so that that light, that abundance, can enter, and our unity needs to be for the service of all of humanity. Now, maybe that's a goal: that we want to unite not just to save our ass, but we want to unite so that the light of life can pour into the world and that all the earth can be blessed, that everyone can be blessed. Maybe there's some...

Norma: It's not a bad word: spiritual role. I don't want to interrupt you. Sorry. I'm just trying to—

Seth: Excite you to talk more, so please—no, no, go ahead. That's it. That spiritual role could be something compelling. That may be something that people can get behind now.

Lio: I will jump in, just to, again, illuminate from a slightly different perspective. You always illuminate, Lio. I know—today I am. That's my calling today. No, because I'm trying to—I was trying today to listen to ourselves talking about it. And Seth and I, we talked about it also before the talk. How do we open this up to people, to listen, to be able to hear it? Because we're so used to talking about these things in different terms. And also with you, but not just between us, we're talking about it so much.

Seth: That some things have become second nature,

Lio: But they're not second nature to people. When I listened to our conversation the last 10 minutes, there was a lot of we—you know, we this, we that, we this, we that—the people, the people, the nation, the Jews. And for a typical young individual who was raised on the throne of individual expression, individual rights, and individual this, individual that, it's very hard to think that somehow my good future is interlinked with this concept of we. I think it's tough for people to think about it in these terms. And it's different. I don't know, Seth, how it was for you when you grew up. When I grew up in Israel, it was the story of this one-armed soldier from the second wave of migrants. His name was Tumpeldo, who said, It's good to die for our country. Remember, Norma? That was the slogan. That's what you grew up on. It's good to die for your country. People ask people today, I forgot—I want to die for this other person that I know pretty well. For my country? What's this thing, country? It seems so far away. So, so, so foreign to people. They don't feel that we thing. And I think maybe Jews still feel that when there's—when stuff happens, we sort of get closer, whereas most people, each one goes home, takes the gun from under the bed, seals the windows, waits for the zombies. Jews usually tend to stick together. So there is something there.

Norma: There's a sense of belonging. Something.

Lio: So I'm wondering, maybe we can, and I know we have to bring this to a close, but maybe on that, Norma, you can think of what you would tell an individual who's listening, who's not so sure—maybe it's a she, a he, it doesn't matter. Whoever is comfortable for you to envision in your mind, why should they look for the goodness of this bigger thing, this collective, and not the individual quality? Maybe that would help us a little bit. Because I feel like this liberal talk has eroded that quality. There is no sense of togetherness, of patriotism. No, it's like whatever. We're all individuals living in one world. And this weird, utopian, almost dystopic dream. So what can you tell someone with a strong individual mind?

Norma: I still believe—I mean, I agree with what Seth said regarding the ultimate goal, which is to be a pipe for the rest of the world, to be a light unto the nations. At the same time, I think that we are built in a certain way: we desire to receive. We won't move a finger unless we think that it's profitable or convenient or beneficial for us and for our own family. This is the point where we are now. I think we are not corrected yet in that desire—an egoistic desire or feeling that we need, or that we have a role for the rest of the world. I think, first of all, we need to see that we are at a turning point where we need to decide; we're at a kind of junction. We can take different directions, and one will lead us to an abyss and the other will lead us to a good future. And the one that will lead us to the good future is when we, first of all, realize that we need to unite—that this is the reason why we are here, that we have to be an example to the world.

Lio: So, are you saying?

Seth: It will help us toward that good future.

Lio: Are you saying there’s something good to be gained, maybe from losing a bit of my individuality, maybe from belonging to something? Is this a good...

Norma: Exactly. You won't jump out of bed unless you think that you have something important to do, and that goal is more important than sleeping. So you always make calculations about what you should do and what you’re going to get out of it. And I think that's the point where we are now.

Seth: Is there a feeling in Israel that the Jews have a mission, a spiritual mission? I'm not talking about the Orthodox. In the secular society, is there a feeling? And I'm not talking about Amos Schocken. In general, do the Jews feel that they have some unique role? And also, the thing that the Jews would go to Amsterdam to see a soccer game—these things are confusing to me, because when I'm thinking about the Jews, I'm not typically thinking about it in terms of all the stuff that they do that's similar to every other nation. I'm thinking of it in terms of, is there something—especially when we're talking about this kind of thing, existential things, big, giant spiritual questions. Is there a feeling in Israel that the Jewish people have a spiritual mission?

Norma: I have the feeling that there's an understanding and awareness from Israeli Jews that there's something special about this people, because otherwise it doesn't make sense that we're still here standing, surrounded by countries that are more or less enemies, or if they are not enemies, they are not that friendly. But at the end of the day, I do believe that there's a sense of togetherness in Israel, and you see that activated when we are in danger. Unfortunately, it kind of disappears when we are fine. So we have those kinds of pressures from outside, and I think that's also part of that awakening for the Jewish people inside Israel. It helps us to realize that we need each other and that we need to be together, again, to survive. Maybe I'm repeating that, because when you live in Israel, I think that's a strong feeling—the importance of survival. I don't think that in New Jersey you feel that. But as a Jew, I would also ask you: what is your impression as an American Jew? Do you feel the importance of that kind of role, a spiritual role as a Jew?

Seth: I'm not a good person to ask. I feel very, very connected to all of you over there, and I also feel that the spiritual mission of the Jewish people very strongly drives me. I feel the mission for humanity, but the most effective and powerful tool I found—I didn't approach this coming from a Jewish angle; I approached this much more universally. But the best tool I found to reach, for example, peace in the world or harmony between all mankind is through this bottleneck here called the Jewish people. So that's why this is important to me. So I don't think that I can—and I invest a ton of time and energy into this—so I'm not a good example of the other people on the street. But you can tell by the way Jews voted that they mostly, I don't think, did vote for Israel—the support of Israel here. More have.

Lio: Just on that topic of this feeling of this mission, someone asked in the chat—One of Six Billion People is the name of the person who asked—what's the difference between human existentialism and Jewish existentialism? It made me think that there's no difference. I mean, all humans have the same existential crisis and resolution, except the Jews have to get there faster and then show the way to everyone else, is my feeling. They're being pressured to get there faster. I think that's what I've seen.

Seth: When we get to this chosen, the question of the chosen that Norma brought up before, it's like chosen for what? What is this unique role? And I'm not sure, but I think through this conversation we clarified that we have the pain from behind, for sure. And regarding a compelling future, I think we have to scrutinize: can a spiritual goal be big enough? When we are bankrupt—that's kind of the good thing about what's also happening here now. So, for example, they're going to slash the government spending and populate Mars and make everybody healthy. And maybe Jesus will come back and everyone will be... But if he doesn't come back, then everything's going to be good. People are going to have savings in their accounts. People are going to be healthy. And if we're still, because of human nature—if all this good stuff happens and we still feel empty in our heart, then what's left? Everyone's healthy, everyone's got some savings, we ended all the wars—more years—but if we still feel empty inside, then what's left? And so this might lead to a spiritual crisis. So I'm hoping that people like us can be at the forefront of pushing for or bringing this to consciousness so, as people's corporeal lives calm down a little bit and things start straightening out, when they still feel empty inside and there's no libs to blame or no Trumps to blame, then what? Then we have to look for these deeper questions, deeper answers, and hopefully that will be compelling enough. And maybe Israel's role will become more clear.

Lio: I want to, before we end, Norma, I’ve got to ask you: what's so great about being Jewish? Maybe there are people here who are not Jewish listening, and maybe they feel some affinity, but they're not sure. But maybe, what's great about it? I feel there's a lot of complaining happening, but what's really great about being Jewish? What's the—for you, I mean, not the book answer, but the Norma answer. You've been around—you tell me. No, you—I know you're the guest—you tell me.

Norma: Because there's this joke about the chosen people: maybe God can choose someone else, you know? It's all the pain and all the persecution and all the problems, and what for? And yeah, it's a question I get from my kids as well all the time. First of all, it's something that we didn't choose; it's part of... I don't want to say—this is kind of tricky—because people feel that we are trying to portray ourselves as something different from others and something special. I look at it as a gift, as having the opportunity to do something useful for the rest of the world. And if this is the role that we received from the times of Abraham—we received the method, how to unite as a people, and we became people—then I see it as something that we received from above, and that's why it's so special. And this is what I try also to permeate to those around me. But again, I don't think that we need to present it as something that is above everyone. It's actually when you get a job, you get a responsibility with that. And this is something very especially unique. I lived abroad for many years, and it doesn't matter where I was; in different countries, it was like family. There's a sense, as I said before, of belonging—that we are not alone, that there are some codes that are beyond the territorial borders and languages. There's an inner connection that makes us feel that we are one family. And that's something very unique from my point of view. I'm being very honest. I don't know what you feel.

Lio: No, no, it's great. And I feel comfortable quoting—I think I just mentioned before we started—we just had a talk with Gadi Taub, a local great podcaster. It's in English. It's coming out this week, hopefully. And so I just listened to another talk of his. I mean, it's worth learning Hebrew just to hear some of his podcasts because he's a great interviewer, great conversationalist. And he was talking to one of his guests, and he also teaches. And he told a story about, you know, he's spending a lot of words trying to explain what's so great about Israel and Zionism and this and that. But he was humbled by an answer of a Holocaust survivor, this woman. They did this interview with people who survived the war right after the war, and they asked a stupid question, like, what was the happiest moment for you? And, of course, everybody said, well, the moment they freed us from the camp, right? That was the happiest moment. But this woman said—and some people said the happiest moment was coming to Israel—but this woman said for her, the happiest moment was getting to the port where the boat was waiting for them to take them to Israel and seeing there's a big sign that says, “Can you enter?” in Hebrew letters. And she's like, I've never seen Hebrew letters this big before. Just to see that in the public space. And that's what I remember. And this is what this is about. It's about a space. We're creating a space where we can be the Jews and then figure out what our role is and what we owe the rest of the world and ourselves and this Creator, if there is one, and all the rest of it. But we need that place that is ours. And so that's what we need to maintain it. It can't happen

Seth: elsewhere. There is no real space

Lio: for us to really be everything we are. We can get along in other places, but that space, I think it's needed here. And I feel after the seventh, people,

Seth: many people are feeling that.

Lio: So maybe that's a good thing, a good outcome from that horrible moment. Norma,

Norma: I didn't say—you didn't answer: why is it good to be a Jew?

Lio: Oh, no, no, I didn't say we asked you the question. I just quoted a story about what was great about having that place for us. It just reminded me of that, because you said belonging—this is our place. That's what I meant. So I think this belonging thing, the fact that you do feel this instantly, even to the point that it annoys the hell out of some people—I think this is a great thing. We underappreciate how quickly we can feel at home with our kin and all that. This is something that people don't have. It's hard for people to find themselves. They have to change their identities and this and that just to get accepted by a certain group of people from the bigger group. And for us, it's much more... when we're doing it well, it's great for us. That quality—don't you find that, Seth? This peoplehood—when it's happening, it's like, wow, this is like... anyways.

Seth: I think that's the feeling that we're all chasing. I think we need to figure out a way to describe it, because to say Coachella or Lollapalooza or...

Lio: some kind of festival where everyone goes—

Seth: yeah, we can point to different kinds of events where people get this feeling, but how do we build a lifestyle around it? The hippies tried; every cult tries. But how do we build a very pragmatic—it's very high and very sublime and utopian—but we're forced to be very pragmatic about it, and I think that's our goal here.

Lio: And Norma, hopefully you're helping us bridge that—Mount Sinai, the original Burning Man. So, Norma, before you go, you have to read this quote that I put in the chat that we ask everyone to read from the sages. This one is from Baal HaSulam, Yehuda Ashlag, probably the greatest Kabbalist of the 20th century, from the newspaper The Nation. He only printed one edition of that, in the hope of bringing the Jews already way back then in the

Seth: early days of

Lio: the formation of Israel. And, you know, we have obviously a lot to learn, even from that. Maybe you can read that for us before we conclude.

Norma: I just want to add about the Burning Man and all those events that it's not a matter of physical gatherings; we need to unite internally. We have this internal connection that we feel, and we just need to foster it and increase it and make it stronger. This is something that goes beyond the frontiers. That's what I said before. I strongly believe that because I felt that in my own skin. I also opened the book, and there's an interesting quote here. It is written in the Book of Zohar: everything stands on love. “Love your neighbor as yourself” is the great principle of the Torah. It's also the essence of the change that we are trying to promote, so I think that's a good quote to finish. And in addition—

Lio: Can you read it again?

Seth: Can you read it again?

Lio: Yeah, read it again. It's good. I almost want to skip my quote.

Norma: I can also read that, or maybe you want to read it.

Lio: No, no, no, I want you to read it.

Norma: I won't find it now, so in the meantime I will read what you—It is written in the Book of Zohar: everything stands on love. “Love your neighbor as yourself” is the great principle of the Torah. And there's another quote of the Book of Zohar: it is upon the Israeli nation to qualify itself and all the people of the world to develop until they take upon themselves that sublime work of the love of others, which is the ladder to the purpose of creation.

Lio: So these are amazing quotes, and I would be content to finish the show here, but I will ask you to read this last quote, because it feels even closer to an average listener. These sound like great, sublime ideas, and it's good to have that goal held way up in the distance, but what he describes here feels a little closer, a little closer. So maybe you—

Norma: I can read it for us: It is a must for every nation to be strongly united within, so all the individuals within it are attached to one another by instinctive love. Moreover, each individual should feel that the happiness of the nation is one's own happiness, and the nation's decadence is one's own decadence. One should be willing to give one's all for the nation whenever needed. Otherwise, its right to exist as a nation in the world is doomed from the start.

Lio: Maybe a little closer. Maybe a little closer.

Norma: You're right, Lio. Thank you so much.

Lio: I'm so happy we got to sit together again. We'll sit together again, I promise. This is our contribution. It's an independent media channel. We're trying to bring a different kind of conversation. We're doing it. It's all free. You don't have to pay anything to hear it. But we do ask that you leave a like. Leave a review. If you're listening to this on Spotify, leave a review. It really helps. Leave a comment. It also helps the algorithm. Anything you can do to push it up helps. We feel more people should be listening to it, and if you feel that you got anything from this talk, then I think it's only fair to take that extra step to promote it to others.

Seth: That's what we do; that's how we help each other.

Lio: This is The Jew Function; thank you, Norma.

Seth: Thanks, Norma; thanks, Lio; thank you so much.

Lio: Have a pleasant rest of the evening and rest of the day.

Seth: Good luck to us all.

Lio: Good luck to us all. Take care, everyone. We'll see you soon.

Norma: Bye-bye to our viewers as well.